Jacques Kallis vs Steve Waugh

[subshakerz]

So that would make Lara and Tendulkar even more awesome. But doesn't really play into a Ponting vs Kallis discussion, I would think.

My point is that being part of an all-star lineup is not a prerequisite for having an aggressive batting style.

 

[shortpitched713]

So you're giving a batsman merit for batting aggressively. I say batsman X has conditions which make batting aggressively a bit easier. Your response is that batsman Y and Z bat aggressively despite not having that condition, therefore batsman X should gain the merit for batting aggressively.

This logically doesn't follow because you haven't addressed the underlying premise that the condition of having an all star team around you creating excellent match positions makes batting aggressively easier, which is the reason that the merit should be somewhat mitigated for batsman X.

 

[StephenZA]

Welcome back to the forum shortpitched!!

 

[shortpitched713]

Welcome back to the forum shortpitched!!

Thanks StephenZA!

 

[TheJediBrah]

Tbf if you make enough first dig, you can play for ****s and giggles in the second, if required.

This but seriously. On average first innings runs are definitely more important. The game is dead or virtually decided half the time you get to the 2nd innings and you're either downhill skiing or playing a meaningless innings meandering to a draw.

The odd 4th innings masterclass skews perception in this regard, but if you had to choose between a bat that bosses 1st innings and one that bosses 2nd innings, you'd be a fool to choose the latter.

Ftr not saying this re. Waugh and Kallis, I don't think this would make Waugh better, just a general perception that sneaks past a lot of people for some reason

 

[subshakerz]

This but seriously. On average first innings runs are definitely more important. The game is dead or virtually decided half the time you get to the 2nd innings and you're either downhill skiing or playing a meaningless innings meandering to a draw.

The odd 4th innings masterclass skews perception in this regard, but if you had to choose between a bat that bosses 1st innings and one that bosses 2nd innings, you'd be a fool to choose the latter.

Ftr not saying this re. Waugh and Kallis, I don't think this would make Waugh better, just a general perception that sneaks past a lot of people for some reason

The importance of the first/second innings runs is balanced out by the fact that match conditions generally makes run getting in the 3rd and 4th innings harder.

 

[Burgey]

The importance of the first/second innings runs is balanced out by the fact that match conditions generally makes run getting in the 3rd and 4th innings harder.

I don't know that this is a generalization you can legit make tbh. This is not a thing in SA, Eng, or NZ for example? I'm saying this without examining historic stats but it seem to me the hardest batting is usually up front in those venues. Used to be that way in Perth & Brisbane too, though they're both roady these days more than anything else.

Don't get me wrong, a 4th innings epic is always awesome because you're playing a knock that stands out massively as the game draws to a close. But I don't know that it's necessarily harder than runs scored in the first dig especially in a lot of places.

 

[subshakerz]

So you're giving a batsman merit for batting aggressively. I say batsman X has conditions which make batting aggressively a bit easier. Your response is that batsman Y and Z bat aggressively despite not having that condition, therefore batsman X should gain the merit for batting aggressively.

This logically doesn't follow because you haven't addressed the underlying premise that the condition of having an all star team around you creating excellent match positions makes batting aggressively easier, which is the reason that the merit should be somewhat mitigated for batsman X.

- Having an all-star batting lineup around does make it easier to bat aggressively, I agree. But it doesnt follow that aggressive batting only comes from having a lineup of such batters around you. Ponting would be an aggressive bat regardless of the lineup he was in, in differing degrees perhaps. And then there are batters like Waugh who were not as aggressive simply because they were in a lineup of strokemakers and their role was different.

- The idea that a batter like Kallis was constrained by conditions around him to always bat conservatively is simply not true. For much of his career, he had a fairly solid batting lineup around him and could have switched gears like other alpha bats for other teams.

- So putting Ponting ahead of Kallis based partly on the former's aggressive style seems warranted

 

[subshakerz]

I don't know that this is a generalization you can legit make tbh. This is not a thing in SA, Eng, or NZ for example? I'm saying this without examining historic stats but it seem to me the hardest batting is usually up front in those venues. Used to be that way in Perth & Brisbane too, though they're both roady these days more than anything else.

Don't get me wrong, a 4th innings epic is always awesome because you're playing a knock that stands out massively as the game draws to a close. But I don't know that it's necessarily harder than runs scored in the first dig especially in a lot of places.

It is a generalization, but most pitches have some level of wear and tear that becomes evident on day 4 and 5. Few pitches ease out or stay true over 5 days, and generally they end in draws. But yes, there are plenty of examples in the opposite, but we are speaking of normal trends. Scoring on a 5th day wicket in Eng, NZ or SA is still not an easy task.

 

[Burgey]

For much of his career, he had a fairly solid batting lineup around him and could have switched gears like other alpha bats for other teams.

I thought it a bit odd people said the line ups Kallis was in weren't much good and that may have been a reason for his style of play. I think he had some decent line ups around him most of his career - not Aus level for most of that time, but more than decent. Anyway, terrific player who batted in a style which suited him and optimized his output for his side.

I don't think he should be criticized for that, just as if Ponting tried to bat within himself a bit more, he probably wouldn't have been as effective either. Even when he played that knock at OT in 2005, he scored so quickly that for a while in the arvo when he was batting with Warne, it started to look like Aus might jag an insane long-odds win. I'd pretty happily wager if Ponting tried to grind out a knock in those circumstances he'd have probably got himself out. Likewise if Kallis tried to boss it more than was comfortable for his style of play.

But when you're comparing such good players, points of difference like those will sway people one way or the other between them.

 

[TheJediBrah]

The importance of the first/second innings runs is balanced out by the fact that match conditions generally makes run getting in the 3rd and 4th innings harder.

Can it be harder? Yes. But not always, and just because it can be harder doesn't mean it's more valuable over a large sample

 

[Uppercut]

I don't know that this is a generalization you can legit make tbh. This is not a thing in SA, Eng, or NZ for example? I'm saying this without examining historic stats but it seem to me the hardest batting is usually up front in those venues. Used to be that way in Perth & Brisbane too, though they're both roady these days more than anything else.

Don't get me wrong, a 4th innings epic is always awesome because you're playing a knock that stands out massively as the game draws to a close. But I don't know that it's necessarily harder than runs scored in the first dig especially in a lot of places.

I’d have said the 4th innings is usually toughest in England. In the first innings you need to worry about seam and swing, but in the 4th there’s often turn and inconsistent bounce, and the seam and swing doesn’t fully disappear. The two tests Australia won in 2019 are a typical example. Occasionally you get a Headingley type pitch that comes together like Perth used to, but it’s the exception.

It’s all tangential to your point anyway. If we’re picking apart careers I mostly just think runs are runs and it doesn’t matter much which innings they come in.

 

[Xix2565]

I’d have said the 4th innings is usually toughest in England. In the first innings you need to worry about seam and swing, but in the 4th there’s often turn and inconsistent bounce, and the seam and swing doesn’t fully disappear. The two tests Australia won in 2019 are a typical example. Occasionally you get a Headingley type pitch that comes together like Perth used to, but it’s the exception.

Doesn't seem to be the case in general though? At least if going by runs per wicket in the 4th innings.

 

[subshakerz]

I thought it a bit odd people said the line ups Kallis was in weren't much good and that may have been a reason for his style of play. I think he had some decent line ups around him most of his career - not Aus level for most of that time, but more than decent. Anyway, terrific player who batted in a style which suited him and optimized his output for his side.

I don't think he should be criticized for that, just as if Ponting tried to bat within himself a bit more, he probably wouldn't have been as effective either. Even when he played that knock at OT in 2005, he scored so quickly that for a while in the arvo when he was batting with Warne, it started to look like Aus might jag an insane long-odds win. I'd pretty happily wager if Ponting tried to grind out a knock in those circumstances he'd have probably got himself out. Likewise if Kallis tried to boss it more than was comfortable for his style of play.

But when you're comparing such good players, points of difference like those will sway people one way or the other between them.

Except that Kallis was perfectly capable of batting more aggressively as he did for a brief spell of 20 odd tests towards the end of his career with a much higher SR while still being productive. It is just that he batted within a shell most of his career which IMO cost his team slightly on occasion. Hence why I prefer Ponting who did better as a main bat, and even Waugh who had a different role than Kallis.

 

[subshakerz]

Can it be harder? Yes. But not always, and just because it can be harder doesn't mean it's more valuable over a large sample

My point is that runs are runs, and I wouldn't give some special credit to a batsman for having a higher average in one innings over the other since I think it balances out.

However, I do think an ATG level batsmen ideally should have 1-2 quality chase innings or match-saving innings in their CV by the end as an all-round display of their skills. This was something that people complained about with Tendulkar until he scored that 4th innings ton against England in 2008 to win the series.

 

[h_hurricane]

My point is that runs are runs, and I wouldn't give some special credit to a batsman for having a higher average in one innings over the other since I think it balances out.

However, I do think an ATG level batsmen should have 1-2 quality chase innings or match-saving innings in their CV by the end as an all-round test of their skills. This was something that people complained about with Tendulkar until he scored that 4th innings ton against England in 2008 to win the series.

In fact this was something Tendulkar did as early as 1990, when he scored his first test hundred. But he did tick the box comprehensively when he scored that ton against England in 2008.

 

[subshakerz]

In fact this was something Tendulkar did as early as 1990, when he scored his first test hundred. But he did tick the box comprehensively when he scored that ton against England in 2008.

I would argue his 136 in Chennai against Pakistan was sufficient too, but then he didnt lead them to a victory.

 

[Uppercut]

Doesn't seem to be the case in general though? At least if going by runs per wicket in the 4th innings.

You made me curious enough to check. For the 53 tests in England in the last decade I get:

1st innings: 31.6 rpw
2nd innings: 29.1 rpw
3rd innings: 30.2 rpw
4th innings: 23.1 rpw

It's more or less what I'd have expected.

 

[Xix2565]

You made me curious enough to check. For the 53 tests in England in the last decade I get:

1st innings: 31.6 rpw
2nd innings: 29.1 rpw
3rd innings: 30.2 rpw
4th innings: 23.1 rpw

It's more or less what I'd have expected.

Were you comparing it to other innings in England? I took it as a comparison of all 4th innings everywhere.

Sorry if I misled you there.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Surely the average for 4th innings would be the lowest in nearly every country though