***Official*** 4th Test @ The Oval, London - 2nd-6th September

[Jack1]

Pretty sure the last time England did it there would have been 2012 vs South Africa. It was like 600-3 or something.

Funny that you think a match that long ago against different opp is relevant. Especially considering what just happened in the 3rd test. lmao...

Swann played too, so you messed up pretty badly. And as I've said - if it's going to turn I'd pick Leach instead of the 4th seamer anyway. You pick the best bowlers to form the strongest attack based on form etc, that could be all spin for all I care - but the 3 main seamers are locked in, just need to find one extra if you want the 4 man attack plus Livingstone (and Root) like I do (and I've explained my reasoning). Considering England's 4th bowler is questionable either way (whether it is seam or spin) it is certainly pitch dependant.

 

[Howe_zat]

Pretty sure the last time England did it there would have been 2012 vs South Africa. It was like 600-3 or something.

Looking, Swann actually did play in that Test. They dropped the spinner for Headingley, which was the draw.

Internet points on offer if you can name the last home Test England won without a spinner (it wasn't recent)

 

[Spark]

Yeah Swann definitely played that Test. I remember because he was the bowler in that glimpse where Strauss detonated his own sunglasses with a throw, which was just about the most memorable thing about that match.

Fair play to SA but 3/600 was not exactly enthralling viewing.

 

[Pothas]

I was at two days of that Test.

I don't think anyone ever played Swann with as much ease as Amla and Kallis did.

Was also Ravi's last Test, a dark day.

 

[wpdavid]

Looking, Swann actually did play in that Test. They dropped the spinner for Headingley, which was the draw.

Internet points on offer if you can name the last home Test England won without a spinner (it wasn't recent)

I know we didn't play a spinner in the 2000 wins against WI. And maybe not in the 2001 win against Australia at Leeds.

EDIT
Definitely not in the 2001 match at Leeds. Not that we bowled them out though. We needed Gilchrist's generous declaration when they were four down to set it up for Butcher to do his thing.

 

[Pothas]

Would we have bothered in some of those early season games against Bangladesh? I guess once Swann came along we usually would have.

 

[wpdavid]

Would we have bothered in some of those early season games against Bangladesh? I guess once Swann came along we usually would have.

Ditto Giles/Panesar, I would think.

 

[Howe_zat]

I know we didn't play a spinner in the 2000 wins against WI. And maybe not in the 2001 win against Australia at Leeds.

EDIT
Definitely not in the 2001 match at Leeds. Not that we bowled them out though. We needed Gilchrist's generous declaration when they were four down to set it up for Butcher to do his thing.

It is the last home test we won without a spinner though. The attack was Gough, Caddick, Mullally and Tudor.

If that doesn’t count due to only taking 14 wickets, then it’s the Lords test from earlier that summer against Pakistan.

Ashley Giles was injured all summer, and scouring the CC for a spinner slightly less effective than Giles must’ve felt like a futile exercise.

Re: Bangladesh, that’s who Batty got his first gig against in 2005, and Swann played on their 2010 tour. Then not touring for 11 years is bull****, ofc.

 

[wpdavid]

It is the last home test we won without a spinner though. The attack was Gough, Caddick, Mullally and Tudor.

If that doesn’t count due to only taking 14 wickets, then it’s the Lords test from earlier that summer against Pakistan.

Ashley Giles was injured all summer, and scouring the CC for a spinner slightly less effective than Giles must’ve felt like a futile exercise.

Re: Bangladesh, that’s who Batty got his first gig against in 2005, and Swann played on their 2010 tour. Then not touring for 11 years is bull****, ofc.

Yeah, I'm not saying it doesn't count. Just agreeing with others that it isn't a very good idea if we actually want to bowl sides out twice.

As for Batty playing his first test against Bangladesh in 2005, didn't he play in SL and help bat out a day to save a match before then? Or maybe it was a bit more recent than I'd thought.

Scratch that, his debut was against Bangladesh but it was in 2003, shortly before the SL series that I remembered.

 

[Jack1]

England have bottled it. No Leach or Livingstone (or Parkinson) in the squad. Guess that means 4 seamers plus Ali and Pope for Buttler. If Curran plays England again will look very soft.

 

[Flem274*]

yeah im not a fan of the random jumble england have between joe root and ollie robinson

the top 3 is fair enough, it's who they think is the best available. below root though it's a random jumble they hope adds up to good.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

Livingstone is very unlucky to not have had a test debut by now but why would you bring him in after we just thrashed India with our best performance in ages?

I still say Leach should be ahead of Moeen but that won't happen, probably Curran out for Woakes is the obvious change, even if Woakes is below his best he will still be better than Curran this summer.

 

[Howe_zat]

Leach ahead of Moeen leaves Curran at 7. Not a fan of that balance. If we had Stokes or even Woakes to be the top 7 allrounder then it’d be a good change but Mo is probably the best allrounder available right now.

Pope-Bairstow-Ali at 5-6-7 is about as normal a balance as you can get when he’s playing. I think I prefer it to Bairstow as a specialist batsman tbh.

 

[honestbharani]

Leach ahead of Moeen leaves Curran at 7. Not a fan of that balance. If we had Stokes or even Woakes to be the top 7 allrounder then it’d be a good change but Mo is probably the best allrounder available right now.

Pope-Bairstow-Ali at 5-6-7 is about as normal a balance as you can get when he’s playing. I think I prefer it to Bairstow as a specialist batsman tbh.

But you do have Woakes now.

 

[Jack1]

Livingstone is very unlucky to not have had a test debut by now but why would you bring him in after we just thrashed India with our best performance in ages?

I still say Leach should be ahead of Moeen but that won't happen, probably Curran out for Woakes is the obvious change, even if Woakes is below his best he will still be better than Curran this summer.

Why not? 4 bowlers plus Livingstone is a good option. Livingstone is in red hot form with the bat and can bowl. Buttler has dropped out, there's room for at least one batsman. England being England as usual though. Picking Malan basically on white ball form yet ignore Livingstone. They don't even follow their own logic and are chicken **** scared of a 4 man attack yet keep picking Curran who averages under 2 wickets per game with the ball and 24 with the bat in 24 tests. In the series he averages 18.5 with bat and 79.33 with the ball (3 wickets)....

Leach ahead of Moeen leaves Curran at 7. Not a fan of that balance. If we had Stokes or even Woakes to be the top 7 allrounder then it’d be a good change but Mo is probably the best allrounder available right now.

Pope-Bairstow-Ali at 5-6-7 is about as normal a balance as you can get when he’s playing. I think I prefer it to Bairstow as a specialist batsman tbh.

Nope. Woakes is available and seems you are also scared of 4 man attack despite England winning the last game with mostly 3 bowlers.

 

[Pothas]

Leach ahead of Moeen leaves Curran at 7. Not a fan of that balance. If we had Stokes or even Woakes to be the top 7 allrounder then it’d be a good change but Mo is probably the best allrounder available right now.

Pope-Bairstow-Ali at 5-6-7 is about as normal a balance as you can get when he’s playing. I think I prefer it to Bairstow as a specialist batsman tbh.

Yep I am fine with it. Keen to get Pope back into the side and then long term you have one of Buttler and Bairstow as keeper, I don't really care which.

Do have sympathy for Leach but have actually managed to convince myself that Moeen should have just been playing the whole time, since 2017 he averages 25 with the ball at home, if he had just avoided ever having to play Australia he would not have had so much time out of the side.

 

[BoyBrumby]

I think, on balance, Leach is a marginally better bowler than Mo, but he's no Ravi Ashwin and India are overlooking his charms just now.

Pope for Jos and, if he pulls up ok in the build up (as I'm assuming his presence in the squad means he's not playing for the Bears), Woakes for SCurran are the only changes I think we'll see.

 

[Howe_zat]

Woakes for Curran is an improvement right now but I'm kinda glum about it. Curran's left arm option is the only thing that stops the attack from being all right arm fast-medium which is an ongoing issue (if not so much in England) and he has a certain sense of clutch about him that meant fans of the 2018 series said he should pretty much always be playing. I miss the player he was meant to be.

 

[Howe_zat]

Thinking about it I feel that way more from Bairstow though. The 'what might have been' level of him as a permanent keeper-bat is off the scale.

 

[Pothas]

Woakes for Curran is an improvement right now but I'm kinda glum about it. Curran's left arm option is the only thing that stops the attack from being all right arm fast-medium which is an ongoing issue (if not so much in England) and he has a certain sense of clutch about him that meant fans of the 2018 series said he should pretty much always be playing. I miss the player he was meant to be.

Haha yeah it will be the most right arm fast-medium attack we have had in ages, imagine the reaction if they rock up at Brisbane. I don't care right now though, all the fast guys are injured.