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CW50 2nd Edition (aka WWIII) - No 11 - 12

smash84

The Tiger King
I'll try my best to post 1 everyday but for the top 10 I want to do one thing a little different from last time (I am not sure if I will eventually do it) which might take a little more time than the usual copy pasting :p

Mind you, the regular copy pasting and picture searching too takes a decent amount of time
 

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
I'll try my best to post 1 everyday but for the top 10 I want to do one thing a little different from last time (I am not sure if I will eventually do it) which might take a little more time than the usual copy pasting :p

Mind you, the regular copy pasting and picture searching too takes a decent amount of time
A little offended at the implication that the write-ups last time were copy paste jobs. :p
 

smash84

The Tiger King
A little offended at the implication that the write-ups last time were copy paste jobs. :p
the guilt speaks out :p

Ankit is right though I was talking of my own copy pasting lol....doing some fresh stuff now and hopefully people will like it :D
 

Jager

International Debutant
As a much younger member, I have to ask- do you think Marshall's legend is slightly a product of his death? No offense intended whatsoever, I know he was a brilliant bowler. I am just curious as to whether his tragedy altered things
 

Satguru

Banned
Its an interesting question actually. It may have altered things in that it added to his legend as he was always quoted to be a very likeable and jovial personality, who played hard, but always got along with opponents over a drink after the game.

He was still considered the best of the west indies quicks and one of the best in the world before his death too. Its easy to consider him the best fast bowler ever, his record is pretty much perfect
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
As a much younger member, I have to ask- do you think Marshall's legend is slightly a product of his death? No offense intended whatsoever, I know he was a brilliant bowler. I am just curious as to whether his tragedy altered things
No, had he passed on mid-career it may be different scenario though.
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
As a much younger member, I have to ask- do you think Marshall's legend is slightly a product of his death? No offense intended whatsoever, I know he was a brilliant bowler. I am just curious as to whether his tragedy altered things
No. When you look at his record, it doesn't have any holes. Ambrose struggled in India and had a less than stellar strike rate, Lillee basically played in only three countries and didnt succeed in the sub continent, Imran's away record pales vastly againts he home record and averaged under 24 only in Pakistan and Sri Lanka (minnow of the day). Wasim also had a less than stellar strike rate and took a disproportionately large number of tail end wickets. As I have said Mcgrath has the second cleanest record but he lacked express pace and variety, similar was Hadlee who was great on a green top, but less so when he lacked assistance, luckily he played the vast majority of his career in three countries and got his 37 wickets vs Sri Lanka at 12 a piece.

Marshall was express and from about 82 - 86 he was the fastest (and best) bowler in the world. He could swing and seam it both ways and had the most dangerous bouncer and it skidded and was almost always neck high and was never dominated by anyone. He went to the graveyard of India in '83 after they had won the World Cup and decimated a very strong batting line up. Persons always talk about the pace quartet the W.I had of the 70's, but by the time Marshall joined the party, Croft had defected, Roberts was fading and Holding almost missed as many games as he played due to injury, additionally Garner and Holding both departed about '86 and Marshall carried the attack and still remained undefeated until '91. He helped to bring along Ambrose, Walsh and Bishop ect, but he was the leader. In '88 he went to England and noticed the conditions, cut down his pace and swung the ball around the Hosts and almost single handedly won the series for the West Indies. He succeeded everywhere and againts all opposition, averaged less away than at home and adapted to all conditions. Perosns talk about his nice personality but on the field had a mean streak, and if he wanted to hurt you he did. Detracors some times talk about lack of helmets, but when he arrived WSC had not only introduced helmets but taught batsmen how to handle high quality pace, but Marshall still dominated. His one draw back is that he never played againts Viv, LLoyd and the rest in test cricket, but he and Viv surely had thiet battles in Shell Sheild and they both had thier fair share of victories. In any even the same can ne said of Warne, Mccgrath, Lillee, but he would have adjusted, and truth be told, India in India was as tough a a challenge as they come for express fast bowlers, and as stated by some observers, he and Holding were just too fast for the Indians.
He was express, blood curdling fast, had all of the toys and knew when and where to use them, and he never lost a test series and was adaptable. He took on the World and more often than not won. He is in my, and many others opinions the Greatest Fast Bowler the World has ever seen and his statistics bear this out, 386 at 20.94 and a srike rate of 47 and unlike some he rarely got a chance to clean up the tail (Garner's job) and along with I belive Mcgrath and Donald took the highest percentage of top order wickets of their totals.

I know i will be crucified for this post, but this is my response to your question.
 
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ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
kyear2, it's curious that you are talking about Marshall's obviously ridiculous record here but expressing unhappiness over CWers' obsession with stats wrt Lillee in the other thread.
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
As i said in the other one, if the numbers support what you see, and read, and for Marshall it does. The consensus that for Lillee because of the injuries and come back that he transcends his numbers some what. Also for Hadlee, from persons who played againts and watched him, he wasn't as good as his numbers.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
As i said in the other one, if the numbers support what you see, and read, and for Marshall it does. The consensus that for Lillee because of the injuries and come back that he transcends his numbers some what. Also for Hadlee, from persons who played againts and watched him, he wasn't as good as his numbers.
Really?

You rate McGrath so highly and Hadlee is not as good as his numbers?

http://www.google.ae/url?sa=t&rct=j...9ODvAg&usg=AFQjCNGtcSUjQmJZnfZY3dO2ObdUWtrbKg
 

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
As i said in the other one, if the numbers support what you see, and read, and for Marshall it does. The consensus that for Lillee because of the injuries and come back that he transcends his numbers some what. Also for Hadlee, from persons who played againts and watched him, he wasn't as good as his numbers.
I can't comment on what ex players have said. But have you watched old video of him in his pomp.

He was incredibly intelligent. The best ones all are.

A Vignette for you - David Boon remodelled his game one year to leave everything alone outside off stump. First test against us he scored 140 and had to be run out.

Come the 2nd test Hadlee dismissed him for 7. When Interviewed about it afterwards Hadlee said "I held myself personally responsible for his 140 - I did make adjustments to his new technique but made them too late. In this inning I went wide of the crease and angled into him so he would forget where his off stump was. He didn't really look the part did he?"
 

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
Also for Hadlee, from persons who played againts and watched him, he wasn't as good as his numbers.
It will be just as 'convincing' if I said Bradman is not as good as his numbers. Yet if I did, I will be classed alongside mass murderers of humanity.
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
I never said that I dont think that he is as good as his numbers, read what most batsmen of the era said and when they are discussing the best bolwers they faced it was Marshall or Lillee. All I was saying is that its odd that here Lille is rated much lower that other places and than by journalist and Hadlee is rated higher. When cricinfo did their exercise, and I know that I reference that a lot, but looking at who voted and the magnitude of the exercise, I see that as close to an consensus 11 that will ever be selected, and while Lillee and Marshall are both opening the bolwing Hadlee didnt even make the 2nd 11. How many posts by journalist on line or anywhere where people say that Hadlee was the greatest ever.
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
Really?

You rate McGrath so highly and Hadlee is not as good as his numbers?

http://www.google.ae/url?sa=t&rct=j...9ODvAg&usg=AFQjCNGtcSUjQmJZnfZY3dO2ObdUWtrbKg
I rate Mcgrath because I saw him bowl, I saw his intensity and his will to win. I saw him give some of the greatest batsmen ever fits, but I also know that some former plaers dont rate him highly at all, from reason varying from lack of pace or that Tendulkar, Lara and others at times stuck into him and he did get some rough treatment at times, but he always came back.
In another era his lack of pace or as some would note variety may have been a liability, but in his era of quick scoring, what he did denied that and forced you to come after him. Lillee and Marshall came after you, agressively, but to me you need a bit of both.
 

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
They both say the same thing, and if they dont to you, thats how it was intended. You are just obsessing over my posts now.

Waht I meant and said was that I am going primarily on writers and players of that era, and who they say the best was. As Boycott said he was a corridor bowler, and the pitches he played on helped that, listen to what Boycs said about Lillee and Marshall nextwill you.
 

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