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Waqar Younis vs. Glenn McGrath vs. Shoaib Akhtar

Uppercut

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McGrath bowled worse in Australia than he did outside Australia.

Australian pitches might not have been a massive hindrance, but they weren't as helpful as the pitches he played on abroad.

Imran, Kapil, Wasim and Waqar always get the "remember they had to bowl a lot on dead home wickets" excuse, despite the fact that all of them bowled better at home than they did abroad.
Yeah. The idea of "good" and "bad" pitches for bowling on obviously isn't entirely untrue, but it's an oversimplification. Certain bowlers prefer certain conditions. For Waqar that might mean an abrasive, dry pitch that will aid reverse swing soon in the innings. For McGrath it might mean decent bounce and that little bit of seam movement only he can extract. It's even more notable with it comes to spinners. Harbhajan Singh and Shane Warne generally excelled on diametrically opposite pitches.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Yep Johnson doing well at home and struggling away is a classic example. Hes more suited to the conditions at home and batsmen are less used to playing his style of bowling in Australia.

Not that it means that he isnt garbage though.
 

GameGod

Cricket Spectator
Overall, McGrath>Waqar>>Shoaib

Peaks? I don't care. Because at their peaks, Mendis>Murali and Hussey>Sachin. Depends on how you define a peak.

Disclaimer: I think Waqar had the potential to be the best fast bowler in the history of test cricket by a comfortable margin, period.
Do you think he ever showed this level of ability (which would make him the greatest pace bowler of all-time)? If so, which year was it in? When I'm talking about peak, I mean the best 1-2 years of a player's career - for instance, as long as McGrath's peak was, he was really at his best in 2000.

More importantly, what kind of stats do you think Waqar could have had? Total wickets, wickets per match, Bowling Average, Strike Rate and Economy Rate? I sincerely doubt his Economy Rate could have been superior to McGrath - his best Economy Rate in a year (and when I say peak, I mean 1-2 years) was 1990 when it was 2.63 (although his peak Strike Rate, in 1993, is simply sensational - 29.5 - this might well be the lowest Strike Rate of all-time for a one-year period in the modern era). On the other hand, McGrath spent 10 years with a lower Economy Rate than that.
 
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weldone

Hall of Fame Member
Do you think he ever showed this level of ability (which would make him the greatest pace bowler of all-time)? If so, which year was it in? When I'm talking about peak, I mean the best 1-2 years of a player's career - for instance, as long as McGrath's peak was, he was really at his best in 2000.

More importantly, what kind of stats do you think Waqar could have had? Total wickets, wickets per match, Bowling Average, Strike Rate and Economy Rate? I sincerely doubt his Economy Rate could have been superior to McGrath - his best Economy Rate in a year (and when I say peak, I mean 1-2 years) was 1990 when it was 2.63 (although his peak Strike Rate, in 1993, is simply sensational - 29.5 - this might well be the lowest Strike Rate of all-time for a one-year period in the modern era). On the other hand, McGrath spent 10 years with a lower Economy Rate than that.
Here you go:
1990: 49 wickets @ 17.04
1991: 7 wickets @ 18.14
1992: 13 wickets @ 22.87
1993: 55 wickets @ 15.24
1994: 42 wickets @ 21.29
Total: 166 wickets @ 18.02

More importantly, one had to see him bowl to get an idea how good he bowled. I clearly remember in those 5 years he had most of the wickets either clean bowled or plumb LBW in front of the wicket. I also remember he was a victim of quite a few missed chances by his teammates throughout his career as a bowler (so was Akram, too). Give me a bowler like Waqar 1990-94 in my team, and as a captain I would be anticipating a wicket every ball. Every time he turned at the top of his run-up there were adrenaline flowing all over in the stands and in front of the television sets. He could get you a wicket in the 2nd over with his fierce out- and in-swing, in the 20th over with his sheer pace and banana inswinging yorkers, and in the 30th over onwards with his lethal reverse swing. You could count on him to wash off the tails in no time. It's not a big deal that the best of batsmen feared him, the big deal is that they feared him always regardless of the match condition, pitch condition and ball condition. And his pace was not the main thing for which they feared him, though he was as fast as anybody in the world then.

Well, if Waqar was not so injury-prone, if he wasn't a victim of the craziness of PCB and politics by...errr...a few of his teammates, if he had the 'mentality' (pardon me for using this word, I know this is not an appropriate word, but I couldn't find a better one...probably 'mcgrath-ish or tendulkar-ish mental stamina' would have been better) to continue to be at the top for as many years as he could and if Pakistan played as many tests as Australia then he would easily end up with more than 600 wickets @ 19 or so (chucked in some imaginary numbers only because you asked). And would surely be successful in all conditions and against all kinds of batsmen. You can easily gauge the no. of 5-fors and wickets per match he would have grossed then. As per strike rate and economy rate goes, as a statistician I regard those 2 stats as the 2 most useless in test match bowling. Still, you could easily gauge his SR in that case (given where it stands in reality). His ER wouldn't have been as good as McGrath's. Had he achieved all these his career spanning across the 90s and the early 2000s (yes, I quoted those figures keeping the quality of pitches and batsmen in mind), he would clearly have been the best fast bowler in history in my book...better than all of Hadlee, Marshall, Barnes, McGrath, Imran, Ambrose, Garner, Akram, Lillee, Lohmann, Holding, Trueman...and by a comfortable margin.

Disclaimer: I don't consider Waqar to be one among the best 10 fast bowlers of all-time.
 
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Furball

Evil Scotsman
Do you think he ever showed this level of ability (which would make him the greatest pace bowler of all-time)? If so, which year was it in? When I'm talking about peak, I mean the best 1-2 years of a player's career - for instance, as long as McGrath's peak was, he was really at his best in 2000.

More importantly, what kind of stats do you think Waqar could have had? Total wickets, wickets per match, Bowling Average, Strike Rate and Economy Rate? I sincerely doubt his Economy Rate could have been superior to McGrath - his best Economy Rate in a year (and when I say peak, I mean 1-2 years) was 1990 when it was 2.63 (although his peak Strike Rate, in 1993, is simply sensational - 29.5 - this might well be the lowest Strike Rate of all-time for a one-year period in the modern era). On the other hand, McGrath spent 10 years with a lower Economy Rate than that.
Economy rate isn't particularly relevant when you take your wickets as quickly as Waqar (or Steyn.)

It's a complete fallacy that a bowler with an economy rate of 2.1 and a SR of 60 is cheaper than a bowler with an economy rate of 3 and a SR of 42.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Economy rate isn't particularly relevant when you take your wickets as quickly as Waqar (or Steyn.)

It's a complete fallacy that a bowler with an economy rate of 2.1 and a SR of 60 is cheaper than a bowler with an economy rate of 3 and a SR of 42.
Yeah not to mention that you are always going to have a higher ER if you bowl full on the stumps like Waqar frequently did. The margin for error is much less.
 

Top_Cat

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Yeah exactly, full at the stumps and trying for big swing, you're going to go for more runs. Doubt there'd be a batsman who faced Waqar in the early-mid 90's who'd say his bowling full made him easier to face. Sure you might get a few half-volleys to play with and even a few on your pads if he was having an off day. But always in the back of your mind would be the one he got right and next thing you knew, your stumps (or toes, as the case may be) would be flying back towards the 'keeper.

No dropping back two metres and 20Km/h for Waqar. Some days he'd take some lumps but still prepared to throw it up there full and fast anyway. It's man's bowling.

Even that video doesn't tell the full story though; Waqar's first spell was awesome.
 
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aussie

Hall of Fame Member
TBF by the 1996 world-cup he was passed his peak. But yes your still 100% on point.
 
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Top_Cat

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haha, what? Even if it was true, and having watched that WC I reckon he was bowling as quick and nasty as he ever did, how is that even relevant? Because he got smashed? The way Jadeja was playing that day, it really didn't matter who was bowling.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
McGrath (and Warne incidentally) bowled better away from home than they did in Australia, so the unhelpful home pitches argument carries a lot more weight for McGrath than it does for Wasim, Waqar or Imran. Yet no-one uses the argument as an excuse to elevate McGrath's achievements.

McGrath bowled worse in Australia than he did outside Australia.

Australian pitches might not have been a massive hindrance, but they weren't as helpful as the pitches he played on abroad.

Imran, Kapil, Wasim and Waqar always get the "remember they had to bowl a lot on dead home wickets" excuse, despite the fact that all of them bowled better at home than they did abroad.
Am well their is barely @ 1 point gap in the difference with Pigeon's home record & away records though (same thing with Hollywood). So thats not a gap in average to base anything on really. McGrath was just as good home or away.

I personally dont recall the likes of Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Kapil getting much extra championing or excuses being made because of the fact the had to bowl on flat home pitches TBH.

To my knowledge the fact that they did bowl on alot of flat home pitches is basically just acknowleged as a obvious standard fact of their respective careers & people move on - no one dwells on it.

If people do make such an excuse, they are minsinformed. Since i'd back other great non subcontinental fast-bowlers such as Marshall, Hadlee, McGrath, Roberts, Holding, Hall, Donald etc to bowl well on flat sub-continental pitches if they had to play on them as their home pitches regularly (based on the success they had in Asia in their careers). So that is a nothing argument really.
 

Burgey

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Where does durability rank for you guys when discussing this?

If I'm a captain and I choose McGrath, I pretty much know he's going to turn up and be close to or at his best, no matter what the conditions.

Its not the ***ehest of attributes I grant you, but it's a handy one to have. Barring his ankle injury early 2000s and when he rolled his ankle in 05, the man just turned up and did it, day in and day out.
 
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aussie

Hall of Fame Member
haha, what? Even if it was true, and having watched that WC I reckon he was bowling as quick and nasty as he ever did, how is that even relevant? Because he got smashed? The way Jadeja was playing that day, it really didn't matter who was bowling.
Waqar peak is generally accepted to have ended by the end of 1994 when he suffered that career chaning back injury vs AUS. He was clearly never the same in either test or ODIs after then.

But as i said i dont disagree with your POV that..."No dropping back two metres and 20Km/h for Waqar. Some days he'd take some lumps but still prepared to throw it up there full and fast anyway. It's man's bowling".


Which during his 89-94 peak did happen againts good batsmen like what Jadeja did to him in that 96 WC QF, i.e the 1993 PAK tour to WI. Just suggesting that in he wasn't @ his ultimate peak anymore during the 96 WC encounter - but i'm not making excuse for it, since Jadeja certainly may have done that to other top bowlers the way he was batting ATT.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Overall, McGrath>Waqar>>Shoaib

Peaks? I don't care. Because at their peaks, Mendis>Murali and Hussey>Sachin. Depends on how you define a peak.

Disclaimer: I think Waqar had the potential to be the best fast bowler in the history of test cricket by a comfortable margin, period.
A peak can be defined as basically the best of players career for a sustained period. Few if any player in test history was a good from test 1 to retirement. Every player who had a sustained injury free career, had a series or individual innings which propelled the start of their peak & it ended by some sort of decline in productivity (for batsmen it was declined in reflexes or bowlers drop in pace (fast bowlers) & spinners (tired fingers which caused them to not spin the ball as big as before).

But of course like Mendis a 1 year peak isn't good enough, you need to at least be dynamic for about 4-5 years really. Although excpetions could be made for people who had 3 year peaks or injury raved careers of top players who played in & out for years i.e Flintoff, Cairns, Tyson, Bond, Schultz, Frank Tyson, Gough).


Burgey said:
Where does durability rank for you guys when discussing this?

If I'm a captain and I choose McGrath, I pretty much know he's going to turn up and be close to or at his best, no matter what the conditions.

Its not the ***ehest of attributes I grant you, but it's a handy one to have. Barring his ankle injury early 2000s and when he rolled his ankle in 05, the man just turned up and did it, day in and day out.
It shouldn't make much a difference really. Since if you are picking hypotetical all-time XI for the various top 8 teams, you would pick Waqar presuming he is @ is 89-94 peak & just like McGrath in all conditons you would expect him to be close to or @ his best no matter what conditons too.
 
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Top_Cat

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Waqar peak is generally accepted to have ended by the end of 1994 when he suffered that career chaning back injury vs AUS. He was clearly never the same in either test or ODIs after then.
Even if true (which I don't think it is; reckon the injury which really changed the way he had to bowl occurred late 90's), he still got smashed when he was killing everyone else. Lara's 150-odd in Sharjah against him is probably still talked about in some circles. Was certainly what put Lara on the map in ODI's at the time.
 

Burgey

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Well no Auusie, you'd pick him, I wouldn't. Because I saw him bowl pies here on more than one occasion.

It's a good thing there's widely available video from all over the place now, because frankly if all I'd ever seen of Waqar was how he bowled here, I'd think him nothing more than a moderate threat.

He in Australia is like Warne in India. Coulda shoulda woulda.

Didn't.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Even if true (which I don't think it is; reckon the injury which really changed the way he had to bowl occurred late 90's), he still got smashed when he was killing everyone else. Lara's 150-odd in Sharjah against him is probably still talked about in some circles. Was certainly what put Lara on the map in ODI's at the time.
That Lara 150 was in 1993 though, would would have been during that peak period of 89-94.

Maybe his ODI exploits post 1994 didnt decline as rapidly. Since in 2001 Natwest even i remember him producing the best two ODI spells i've ever seen, when he took 13 wickets in 2 ODIs (7 vs ENG & 6 vs AUS).

But his test expolits after 1994 was certainly never the same. Just took two 5 wicket hauls (againts quality opposition) in 8 years after that. First i saw him bowl in test vs AUS 99/00 he certainly was average
 

Top_Cat

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But his test expolits after 1994 was certainly never the same. Just took two 5 wicket hauls (againts quality opposition) in 8 years after that. First i saw him bowl in test vs AUS 99/00 he certainly was average
He didn't wake up on Jan 1995 a decidedly worse bowler than he was in on Dec 31st 1994, especially since he was still terrifyingly quick for years after that.

Plus, you can't pin it all on his own decline, batsmen just played him better after a while. It happens to all bowlers once they get a good look at a bloke and Waqar certainly got a lot of attention.
 
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tooextracool

International Coach
He didn't wake up on Jan 1995 a decidedly worse bowler than he was in on Dec 31st 1994, especially since he was still terrifyingly quick for years after that.

Plus, you can't pin it all on his own decline, batsmen just played him better after a while. It happens to all bowlers once they get a good look at a bloke and Waqar certainly got a lot of attention.
Its not a question of waking up and suddenly being rubbish. Anyone who watched Waqar post injury in 1995 noticed that he was half the bowler. Yes he may still occasionally have bowled quick, and yes occasionally he swung the ball (in fact he probably became a better new ball bowler after) but he rarely swung the ball at the pace and as much as he did pre 1995 and I think that is glaringly obvious if you watch even a single video of his career.

This is similar to the argument on Craig White who continued to occasionally bowl just as quick post 2001 as he did before but it was glaringly obvious that he was half the bowler.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
A peak can be defined as basically the best of players career for a sustained period. Few if any player in test history was a good from test 1 to retirement. Every player who had a sustained injury free career, had a series or individual innings which propelled the start of their peak & it ended by some sort of decline in productivity (for batsmen it was declined in reflexes or bowlers drop in pace (fast bowlers) & spinners (tired fingers which caused them to not spin the ball as big as before).

But of course like Mendis a 1 year peak isn't good enough, you need to at least be dynamic for about 4-5 years really. Although excpetions could be made for people who had 3 year peaks or injury raved careers of top players who played in & out for years i.e Flintoff, Cairns, Tyson, Bond, Schultz, Frank Tyson, Gough).




It shouldn't make much a difference really. Since if you are picking hypotetical all-time XI for the various top 8 teams, you would pick Waqar presuming he is @ is 89-94 peak & just like McGrath in all conditons you would expect him to be close to or @ his best no matter what conditons too.
All irrelevant. Any player who is the man for 12 years is better than someone who was great for 5. There is no question about it. ask any captain in the world if they could have Waqar for 5 or McGrath for 12 and they'd all take McG. Durability matters.
 

Top_Cat

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Its not a question of waking up and suddenly being rubbish. Anyone who watched Waqar post injury in 1995 noticed that he was half the bowler. Yes he may still occasionally have bowled quick, and yes occasionally he swung the ball (in fact he probably became a better new ball bowler after) but he rarely swung the ball at the pace and as much as he did pre 1995 and I think that is glaringly obvious if you watch even a single video of his career.
DWTA. As far as I saw, he was sending down similar stuff but was just played better.
 

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