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CMJ's top 100
- Thread starter bagapath
- Start date
Um...well...kind of, if a bowler performs on a flat surface they're given plenty of accolades, but perhaps not as many as a batting performance in tough conditions. When they fail in condtitions conducive to them I think they're both roundly whipped, though batsmen with good recent form are perhaps given more leeway than bowlers. I guess great batting has more romance and inspires the imagination more than great bowling, though IMO there is no greater sight in cricket than a top class quick on the war path, although sachin in full flow is simply perfection.
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Aye, i'm very much in the bowler-love camp. No innings I've ever seen has ever, nor do i think will ever, compare to a top-class wrist-spinner or fast bowler ripping through a side.
wfdu_ben91
International 12th Man
Exactly. It's only been since the start of 2000 that bat has dominated ball so prominately. From every single era, there has been more bowlers averaging low 20's then there have been batsman averaging over 50, except from 2000 onwards, but yet the modern era batsman are criticised from taking advantage of favourable conditions. So why aren't bowlers who played before 2000 as heavily criticised when they've been doing the exact same thing as what the modern batsman have been doing for the past 100 years?
Batsman of the modern era, such as Gilchrist, Sehwag, Hayden, etc, have done some amazing things over their career and have made batting look as easy and entertaining, so much so, that when they're at their best it's almost unbelievable. Albeit, the majority of their success has come on flatpitches therefore, their accolauds are quickly overlooked by most.
In similar instances with the ball, the likes of Michael Holding, Joel Garner, Dennis Lillee, have all been taunted as extremely fast and great bowlers by the same people, who call the likes of Gilly, Sehwag & Haydos, flattrack bullies. But yet have those bowlers ever bowled on as flatter decks as what the modern bowlers have? Did they bowl to batsman with helmets or bigger bats? No, they didn't, atleast not for the majority of their careers. So why should Holding, Garner, Lillee and co be mentioned in the same breathe as bowlers from the modern era like McGrath, Pollock, Steyn, etc? How ridiculous does my last sentence sound? As bout as equally as ridiculous as those who quickly brush aside the accomplishments of batsman who took advantage of flatpitches and bigger bats. People also easily forget that Sri Lanka were minnows in the 1980's and these same people convienately forget this stat, but are quick to jump on batsman who scored prolifically against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe.
Why are batsman always the target of scrutiny and criticism? Because they've been taking advantage of flatpitches? Big deal? Bowlers have bowled to batsman without helmets for almost a century! Then again, I think it gives a bowler more advantage to bowl to batsman without a helmet then it is for a batsman to face a bowler on a flatpitch, for obvious reasons. If you are easily going to discard the likes of Hayden, Sehwag, Gilchrist, etc accomplishments because they took advantage of favourable conditions then you have to discard the majority of bowlers accomplishments before 2000, because really, bowlers have been taking advantage of favourable conditions allot longer then what batsman have.
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I've brought that up before. It would only be fair to hold taking wickets in more favourable conditions against bowlers if you were comparing them to bowlers who had taken wickets when pitches were flat. Likewise, it's not fair to hold Hayden's era against him unless you were comparing him to, for example, Greg Chappell, who averaged a little more in a much more difficult time to bat.
After 2000, there's essentially only one bowler who has taken wickets at an average that would have made him an all-time great before 2000. Step forward Glenn McGrath, quite possibly the greatest bowler of all time.
After 2000, there's essentially only one bowler who has taken wickets at an average that would have made him an all-time great before 2000. Step forward Glenn McGrath, quite possibly the greatest bowler of all time.
Beleg
International Regular
you forgot Murali.
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Fair call, yeah. I was only thinking of fast bowlers. Murali is a true all-time great too.
His record's not quite as crazy as McGrath's though. Since 2000, McGrath took just short of 300 wickets- Bangladesh/Zimbabwe excluded- at an astonishing 20.46. Murali's record is pretty damn impressive too, but McGrath is still a bit ahead of his contemporaries.
Beleg
International Regular
The Complete Statistics
McGrath, Warne and Murali (along with Pollock to some extent) really are the standouts. from a Pakistani fan's prespective, it brings up images of what could have been if Akhtar had been a wee bit more motivated...
Edit: I dislike cherrypicking of stats and disagree with the categorical removal of Bangladesh and Zimbabwe therefore I included both of 'em. The top six/seven still stays the same (with the exception of Murali overtaking McGrath, but it's academic).
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You just included Bangladesh and Zimbabwe? ...Why?
bagapath
International Captain
no one has questioned the greatness of sachin and lara. they would be successful in any era. they have the technique to to be champs anytime in the history of the game. even ponting and dravid and inzamam and pietersen for than matter. only hayden's claim to greatness as an opener is questioned because he is likely fold against high quality swing bowling / accurate fast bowling because he has a not-so-great technique for an opener.
kumble's greatness is also under question because his success in india is in stark contrast to his failures outside the sub-continent.
the world is not unfair to batsmen. some cricketers, batsmen and bowlers alike, need the support of a helpful wicket - kumble, a dust bowl and hayden, a flat track. those who dont need it and succeed everywhere are the all time greats. the others fall short of legendary status. that is all.
Beleg
International Regular
Because I don't believe there is ample cause to categorically dismiss performances against Bangaldesh and Zimbabwe in the test arena.
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
Really?
Either way the reality is that bowler-friendly pitch - ideally not massively so - is the "standard" for most people. Flat, lifeless, non-seaming, non-turning pitch should be an exception. Bowlers who can succeed on really flat decks, consistently, are pretty rare - there'd have been maybe 40-odd in the history of cricket. Batsmen, however, have precisely no right to be playing constantly on such things - it should be a rare treat. Thus I resent the fact that lots of batsmen have recently had the chance to do such a thing, because virtually no-one outside the 1930s ever did.
That's the way I see it. And, judging by many other comments on CW down the years, the way others do.
Richard
Cricket Web Staff Member
No it isn't, it's since the start of the 2001/02 season. The year 2000 and the early part of 2001 saw some of the best and most effective bowling Test cricket has ever seen.
wfdu_ben91
International 12th Man
Beside the fact that pitches before 1970 were uncovered and batsman never got to use helmets? How is that fair to the batsman? I'd say that, that is a greater disadvantage to a batsman then what a lifeless flatpitch is for a bowler.
Migara
International Coach
Coming back to the argumet, how many great fast bwolers KP faced, how many Waugh faced? Pick your names and we'll get back to the argument.
bagapath
International Captain
top 25 fast bowlers against waugh
Code:
CEL Ambrose (WI) 1988-1999 23 44 939.2 248 2220 115 7/25 10/120 19.30 2.36 49.0 8 1
CA Walsh (WI) 1988-2001 28 52 1067.2 221 2875 104 6/54 9/146 27.64 2.69 61.5 3 0
D Gough (Eng) 1994-2001 16 28 609.2 117 2109 67 6/49 7/119 31.47 3.46 54.5 3 0
AR Caddick (Eng) 1993-2003 17 28 641.3 101 2372 60 7/94 10/215 39.53 3.69 64.1 4 1
Wasim Akram (Pak) 1990-1999 13 21 498.2 102 1288 50 6/62 11/160 25.76 2.58 59.8 4 1
AA Donald (SA) 1994-2002 12 21 466.0 98 1422 45 6/59 9/133 31.60 3.05 62.1 2 0
ARC Fraser (Eng) 1989-1998 11 21 483.0 94 1269 45 6/82 8/131 28.20 2.62 64.4 3 0
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ) 1986-1990 7 12 355.1 88 849 41 7/116 10/176 20.70 2.39 51.9 5 1
CL Cairns (NZ) 1989-2001 14 21 437.1 88 1636 39 5/146 7/144 41.94 3.74 67.2 1 0
IR Bishop (WI) 1992-1997 9 17 329.3 58 881 38 6/40 8/57 23.18 2.67 52.0 1 0
DK Morrison (NZ) 1987-1993 11 16 415.1 79 1289 37 7/89 7/89 34.83 3.10 67.3 2 0
DE Malcolm (Eng) 1989-1997 13 24 490.0 93 1571 36 4/39 7/117 43.63 3.20 81.6 0 0
DW Headley (Eng) 1997-1999 6 11 252.5 40 867 35 6/60 8/102 24.77 3.42 43.3 1 0
Waqar Younis (Pak) 1990-2002 12 20 313.5 65 1014 30 4/55 7/144 33.80 3.23 62.7 0 0
AB Agarkar (India) 1999-2004 8 15 275.5 48 1005 29 6/41 8/160 34.65 3.64 57.0 1 0
PAJ DeFreitas (Eng) 1986-1995 11 22 477.1 90 1461 29 3/62 5/94 50.37 3.06 98.7 0 0
SM Pollock (SA) 1997-2002 8 13 304.0 75 774 28 7/87 9/148 27.64 2.54 65.1 1 0
MD Marshall (WI) 1988-1991 7 14 253.1 53 662 27 5/29 6/46 24.51 2.61 56.2 1 0
GR Dilley (Eng) 1986-1989 7 14 293.2 55 931 24 5/68 6/115 38.79 3.17 73.3 1 0
M Dillon (WI) 1999-2003 7 12 255.4 27 969 24 4/76 6/165 40.37 3.79 63.9 0 0
JH Kallis (SA) 1997-2002 12 18 262.4 50 873 22 3/29 5/124 39.68 3.32 71.6 0 0
Shoaib Akhtar (Pak) 1998-2002 7 12 214.2 34 771 20 5/21 8/72 38.55 3.59 64.3 1 0
GC Small (Eng) 1986-1991 5 10 202.4 47 557 20 5/48 7/88 27.85 2.74 60.8 2 0
J Srinath (India) 1998-2001 6 11 203.3 34 717 20 4/130 6/124 35.85 3.52 61.0 0 0
KCG Benjamin (WI) 1993-1996 7 13 191.3 25 660 19 3/32 4/46 34.73 3.44 60.4 0 0bagapath
International Captain
top 25 fast bowlers against pietersen
Code:
B Lee (Aus) 2005-2007 10 20 388.0 57 1486 40 4/47 6/83 37.15 3.82 58.2 0 0
GD McGrath (Aus) 2005-2007 8 16 343.1 87 942 40 6/50 9/82 23.55 2.74 51.4 3 0
SR Clark (Aus) 2006-2007 5 10 194.2 53 443 26 4/72 7/93 17.03 2.27 44.8 0 0
Z Khan (India) 2007-2008 5 10 208.2 60 534 26 5/75 9/134 20.53 2.56 48.0 1 0
FH Edwards (WI) 2007-2009 9 16 243.1 19 1017 25 6/92 6/104 40.68 4.18 58.3 2 0
S Sreesanth (India) 2006-2007 5 10 186.5 45 569 18 4/70 5/100 31.61 3.04 62.2 0 0
Umar Gul (Pak) 2006-2006 4 7 158.2 21 614 18 5/123 7/199 34.11 3.87 52.7 1 0
Shoaib Akhtar (Pak) 2005-2005 3 6 118.4 18 418 17 5/71 6/116 24.58 3.52 41.8 1 0
JE Taylor (WI) 2007-2009 9 15 227.2 37 850 17 5/11 8/85 50.00 3.73 80.2 1 0
KD Mills (NZ) 2008-2008 5 8 155.4 31 413 16 4/16 6/77 25.81 2.65 58.3 0 0
WPUJC Vaas (SL) 2006-2007 6 11 205.0 41 586 16 4/28 5/132 36.62 2.85 76.8 0 0
CS Martin (NZ) 2008-2008 6 10 210.4 49 619 15 3/33 5/93 41.26 2.93 84.2 0 0
Mohammad Sami (Pak) 2005-2006 6 11 193.3 27 738 15 3/100 5/235 49.20 3.81 77.4 0 0
M Morkel (SA) 2008-2008 4 7 140.2 19 502 15 4/52 7/113 33.46 3.57 56.1 0 0
DBL Powell (WI) 2007-2009 8 12 230.0 35 853 15 3/89 5/127 56.86 3.70 92.0 0 0
M Ntini (SA) 2008-2008 4 7 140.0 25 521 14 5/94 7/149 37.21 3.72 60.0 1 0
RP Singh (India) 2007-2007 3 6 92.3 20 347 12 5/59 7/117 28.91 3.75 46.2 1 0
CD Collymore (WI) 2007-2007 4 6 137.0 19 478 11 3/58 4/168 43.45 3.48 74.7 0 0
JDP Oram (NZ) 2008-2008 5 8 136.0 47 240 11 3/44 6/90 21.81 1.76 74.1 0 0
JH Kallis (SA) 2008-2008 4 7 96.0 20 295 10 3/31 4/90 29.50 3.07 57.6 0 0
SL Malinga (SL) 2006-2007 5 10 146.4 20 491 10 3/78 3/115 49.10 3.34 88.0 0 0
MM Patel (India) 2006-2006 2 4 80.0 16 217 10 4/25 7/97 21.70 2.71 48.0 0 0
IE O'Brien (NZ) 2008-2008 2 3 66.0 15 185 8 4/74 4/74 23.12 2.80 49.5 0 0
IK Pathan (India) 2006-2006 3 6 101.0 23 315 8 3/92 5/140 39.37 3.11 75.7 0 0
DJG Sammy (WI) 2007-2007 1 2 38.3 9 98 8 7/66 8/98 12.25 2.54 28.8 1 0
Slifer
International Captain
His stats are thrown off (against India) quite a bit by the fact that he had a terrible debut series against him when he was just a green horn to test cricket.
bagapath
International Captain
9 home tests is still good enough a sample size to determine your performance against a particular team. in comparison warne played 5 home tests against india, 2 in debut series, and 9 in india. yet we all have agreed that he was ineffective against them. similarly we should acknowledge that ambrose's record against india is weak.
i do think ambrose is a master fast bowler. and so is mcgrath. if i were to choose between the two of them, and a gun is pointed at me, i would choose mcgrath because amby's failure against india is not something i can ignore .