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Muralitharan a burglar,a thief and a dacoit : Bedi

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Pratyush said:
I thought the arm has to be straight at the point of delivery. Its not the case as Liam explained to me over MSN.

His wrist flexing wasnt concieed at the time of writing the law though and things have to be changed as and when required. Chandra having 6 fingers wasnt such an advantage. Even Sobers had 6 fingers in both hands when he was born.

He shouldnt be bowling in test cricket right now.. thats what I feel. All my thoughts and feelings dont have to be in sync with that of other people but its some thing I believe in and I will stand by it.
Well, if bowlers aren't allowed to use the wrists wristspin would be banned, totally!:rolleyes:
The laws have never, ever concerned themselves with the wrists or anything apart from the elbow. Because nothing else will constitute an unfair delivery.
The laws won't be changed because there is no reason for them to be; indeed they never really have been.
Many revisions of wording have been undertaken, but the laws have never been changed much.
IMO there is no reason they should be; use of the wrist has never been illegal, use of straightening the arm in delivery always has been.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
*Bump*

Murali sues Bedi for defamation

Quite bloody right IMO, I'm getting totally sick of Bedi and his anti-Murali comments. This has to be the third time at the very least (let's not forget this either). I hope he gets some serious damages and that this shuts Bedi up for the rest of Murali's career. 8-)
 

pasag

RTDAS
Deserves a new thread imo, anyways I don't know the laws there but I doubt you can sue for something like this and quite rightly, imo.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I thought that but I highly doubt anyone would bother wasting all this money trying if they knew there was no chance.

Reason I didn't create a new thread, TBH, was that I wanted to emphasise previous Bedi comments.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
If you call someone a criminal like Bedi has been doing, you can certainly sue for defamation of character.

"In law, defamation is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may harm the reputation of an individual, business, product, group, government or nation."

So unless Bedi can prove in court that Murali is a gang member or a criminal in some way, Murali certainly has a strong case. Remember, Bedi has called him names that go above and beyond merely labeling him a 'chucker'.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Yeah, exactly. That's what's always annoyed me so much. And that's why I hope Murali gets some sort of settlement.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
How is it unfair though?

It's no more unfair than the advatage being small has in certain cases, or being tall, or being left handed...
Sorry for jumping in bare-footed into this old debate...

It isn't abnormal to be small, tall or left-handed. It is abnormal because the normality refers to the frequency of said characteristic. How many players are small, tall or left-handed? A lot. But how many are like Murali? It's not that he is deformed, because that broadens the debate, it is how his deformity is abnormal and gives him this 'advantage' as Pratyush is saying.

Imagine a 8'5 Basketball player standing next to the net and just dropping everything thrown at him, even from the back of the court, to his hands in the air and all he has to do is drop it down in. Sure, there is skill in that he is getting it in the basket, but I think Pratyush's point is much different to that. :sleepy:
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Sorry for jumping in bare-footed into this old debate...

It isn't abnormal to be small, tall or left-handed. It is abnormal because the normality refers to the frequency of said characteristic. How many players are small, tall or left-handed? A lot. But how many are like Murali? It's not that he is deformed, because that broadens the debate, it is how his deformity is abnormal and gives him this 'advantage' as Pratyush is saying.

Imagine a 8'5 Basketball player standing next to the net and just dropping everything thrown at him, even from the back of the court, to his hands in the air and all he has to do is drop it down in. Sure, there is skill in that he is getting it in the basket, but I think Pratyush's point is much different to that. :sleepy:
But every professional athlete has an unfair advantage of some sort. Viv Richards had amazing hand eye coordination that I lack, and maybe he had that attribute that was by far and ahead of everyone else.

Is that unfair and should he be banned?
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
But every professional athlete has an unfair advantage of some sort. Viv Richards had amazing hand eye coordination that I lack, and maybe he had that attribute that was by far and ahead of everyone else.

Is that unfair and should he be banned?
Uh, do you realise how crap that comparison is? Sorry I had to use the word 'crap', but I couldn't think of anything else.

We're not talking about you, we're talking about cricketers. Is Viv Richards the ONLY guy with good hand-eye coordination? Nevermind that it's not simply something you're mystically endowed with but something that is attained in infancy-to-toddler age.

"Maybe he had something others didn't?"

I'm sure, you agree, the argument is kind of lacking. I could say: "well, you're too good of a cricketer, that's unfair" and using the same borders of logic it would be the same.

We're talking about an extremely significant deformity which, besides having helped him and his team a great/enormous deal, has rocked the cricketing world.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
So let's take the case of Sir Donald Bradman. His shot-selection was abnormally good - this made him disproportionally better than the next best lot. There's daylight between him and the lot who are "the next best".

Yet Murali doesn't even have daylight between himself and the other great wristspinner of his generation.

IMO, you can't say Murali's wrist is an unfair advantage just because it's extremely abnormal, because there are other irregularly present advantages enjoyed by others. Just, by their very nature, you don't see 'em often.

Lillee and Richards were streets ahead of most of their 70s compatriots in attitude, too, and that's why they were special players and are remembered so fondly, not because they had massive amounts of ability more than the rabble. IMO it's very possible to make a case for Greg Chappell > Richards and IMO it makes no sense not to argue that Marshall > Lillee.
 

Dasa

International Vice-Captain
So basically, if you have a natural advantage that's exceedingly rare, it's not OK, but if you have a natural advantage that quite a few players enjoy, it's fine?
Nonsense imo.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
So let's take the case of Sir Donald Bradman. His shot-selection was abnormally good - this made him disproportionally better than the next best lot. There's daylight between him and the lot who are "the next best".

Yet Murali doesn't even have daylight between himself and the other great wristspinner of his generation.

IMO, you can't say Murali's wrist is an unfair advantage just because it's extremely abnormal, because there are other irregularly present advantages enjoyed by others. Just, by their very nature, you don't see 'em often.

Lillee and Richards were streets ahead of most of their 70s compatriots in attitude, too, and that's why they were special players and are remembered so fondly, not because they had massive amounts of ability more than the rabble. IMO it's very possible to make a case for Greg Chappell > Richards and IMO it makes no sense not to argue that Marshall > Lillee.
Okay, you're all smart people but you're simply giving really bad examples.

Being good at shot selection is something you LEARN, you get better at, maybe even have some 'natural talent' for but you do NOT compare it to a DEFORMITY.

A lot of what you are arguing is ABILITY that was trained, it was not a DEFORMITY that Lillee, Richards or Bradman were born cricketers with great ability.

So basically, if you have a natural advantage that's exceedingly rare, it's not OK, but if you have a natural advantage that quite a few players enjoy, it's fine?
Nonsense imo.
Actually, that is EXACTLY it. If it was something that ALL players had it would not be 'ABNORMAL' nor would it be an 'ADVANTAGE' because EVERYONE has it, or even if SOME players had it.

Also, you use the word 'NATURAL'. Anything can be NATURAL, it just has to happen in nature. I could be a giant, with amazing speed, strength...what have you, being the only one, is that not an unfair advantage? The world here is 'NORMAL', with which the frequency of such persons with such physical characteristics are present. There is no NORMALCY to it.

P.S. Pardon the capitalised words, needed to get the point across.
 
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Dasa

International Vice-Captain
Actually, that is EXACTLY it. If it was something that ALL players had it would not be 'ABNORMAL' nor would it be an 'ADVANTAGE' because EVERYONE has it, or even if SOME players had it.

Also, you use the word 'NATURAL'. Anything can be NATURAL, it just has to happen in nature. I could be a giant, with amazing speed, strength...what have you, being the only one, is that not an unfair advantage? The world here is 'NORMAL', with which the frequency of such persons with such physical characteristics are present. There is no NORMALCY to it.

P.S. Pardon the capitalised words, needed to get the point across.
I get the point, I just think it's nonsensical and clutching at straws at best. Going by your logic, why shouldn't someone abnormally intelligent be barred from attending school, or someone abnormally fast be barred from competing in athletics events etc...as for the crap about normalcy, you're entering very dangerous territory...look at it from the opposite angle, someone who is abnormally deficient in an area shouldn't be allowed to do something? Do you realise what you're actually saying?
 
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Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
I get the point, I just think it's nonsensical and clutching at straws at best. Going by your logic, why shouldn't someone abnormally intelligent be barred from attending school, or someone abnormally fast be barred from competing in athletics events etc...
Um, I don't know if everyone stopped drinking water or something...

Uh, because abnormalities like that are encouraged in schools? If you are abnormally smart, you get into the BEST schools and it's really not about competition as it is about furthering the human race?!

A more apt example would be like having a boxing match with someone who has four arms? It's a competition, there is weight-class and everything, trying to keep the bout fair and based on skill...kinda like Cricket.

Really, I don't know how much I agree with this argument, but it certainly has it's merits and people didn't understand Pratyush's point - or I seem to think so.
 

Engle

State Vice-Captain
Analogies flying all over the place....

The diff being that one is bending (pardon the pun) the rules.

The others are not.
 

Mahindinho

State Vice-Captain
But every professional athlete has an unfair advantage of some sort. Viv Richards had amazing hand eye coordination that I lack, and maybe he had that attribute that was by far and ahead of everyone else.

Is that unfair and should he be banned?
As Kazoholic pointed out, perhaps that's not the best analogy. I still think it's valid, though -- where do you draw the line between "natural capabilities" and "freakish mutation"?

I don't know how many of you lot follow cycling, but many will have heard of Miguel Indurain, "Big Mig", who absolutely dominated the Tour de France for half a decade or so. He did so with the aid of an abnormally large heart and lungs.

His heart is estimated to be 50% larger than the average bloke's, with a resting pulse of 30bpm (beats per minute) -- the average man hits 70bpm. His lung capacity is something like 8 litres, way above the average 5-6.

Some of that's down to fitness, but even the fittest average bloke can only go up to a certain level.

It turns out that most Tour riders have larger than average hearts and lung capacities, but the likes of Indurain are true freaks.

So, is that an unfair advantage?

The same with basketball -- if you're 7'6", you're going to have an advantage. Part of cricket's beauty is that it's so much more a game of skill (both mental and physical) than athletism or other physical characteristics.

Personally, I don't think Murali chucks...not more than the ICC-decreed 15 degrees of straightening, anyway. And don't get started on the "even one degree is chucking" stuff -- I don't think anyone on here is foolish enough for that one, anyway.

I do think that Murali's elbow deformity gives him an advantage, though. Perhaps it, and the ensuing optical illusion, makes his action harder to pick.

Perhaps the fact that he has, in effect, a shortened arm (as measured in a straight line from shoulder to wrist) allows him to rotate it faster while maintaining consistency and wrist movement (Murali's arm speed is up there with the quickest pacemen).

Perhaps it allows his wrist to operate on a different plane of rotation, allowing him to turn the ball squarer than others. Or something like that.

Going back to the freak thing, someone said about that a three-legged man shouldn't be allowed to run in the Olympics. Well, why not? He would have been born with the extra leg. Genetically engineering the third leg would be a different matter, as is that South African amputee with the prosthetic shins (that allow him to run very very fast with mechanical aid).

The fact is that the vastly overwhelming majority of mutations are not advantageous. My hyperextension and double-jointedness (very common in us Sri Lankans) mean that I suffer from plenty of joint pain and sprains (and still can't bowl 8-) ). I have plenty of friends who are short, slow, slight or just plain clumsy*, none of whom would ever make it in a truly athletic discipline...but I can only think of one or two whose 'deformities' have helped them in sports. I'm not talking a few inches in height here, mind.

* I'm not suggesting that some people are just born clumsy -- there's always nature vs. nurture -- but I do think there's a degree of genetic predisposition.
 
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Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Its about time someone did that. I respect Bedi as a cricketer, but his tirade against Murali has gone too far.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Okay, you're all smart people but you're simply giving really bad examples.

Being good at shot selection is something you LEARN, you get better at, maybe even have some 'natural talent' for but you do NOT compare it to a DEFORMITY.

A lot of what you are arguing is ABILITY that was trained, it was not a DEFORMITY that Lillee, Richards or Bradman were born cricketers with great ability.
All ability requires some form of training. Shot-selection is not simply a case of "whoever practices most, does it best", otherwise anyone who wanted to (given a decent eye which all good club batsmen possess) would be able to be Bradmans. Unusually good shot-selection is every bit as much of a natural asset as an unusually supple wrist.
 

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