The MMA/UFC Thread

[cnerd123]

McGregor definitely hadn't been hit that hard before.

But Diaz regularly fights in 155. Conor has fought in 155 a lot of times. I mean, this fight was supposed to be against RDA for the 155 belt. And RDA beat Diaz at 155 on route to getting that belt.

Weight isnt an excuse for McG here. These were two 155 guys fighting without the weight cut. Diaz is just a really good boxer, probably the best in the UFC.

McG definitely has a weak defensive game. He usually relies on his reach to keep opponents out. He's a good mover but fighting someone with Diaz's reach, skill and toughness isn't something he had much experience with. He tagged Diaz several times but not with as much power as he would have liked. He missed Diaz's chin. He didn't protect himself well. Pretty straightforward.

I don't see the argument for McG being as good a boxer as Diaz.

 

[Jord]

There is no excuse for Conor losing, there are reasons in which he lost a fight that was really there for him to win, those reasons ranked in order

1. He was too arrogant, didn't respect Nate enough and thought he would breeze through him early.
2. He had absolutely no capability to defend against Nate on the ground, the moment the fight went there he was comprehensively smashed.
3. He was too busy trying to live up to his prediction of "toying with Nate for the first round and then finishing him off" hence the spinning wheel kicks, the laughing at him when he landed shots.
4. He wasn't conditioned at all well enough fighting at this weight, he was physically exhausted after the first round when usually his cardio is up there with anyone else

If they both had a proper eight week fight camp targeted towards them facing at 155lbs or should Conor spend the next nine to twelve months properly getting himself ready to fight at 170lbs then the fight would be completely different. Diaz would still have a great shot at winning because he was so comprehensively better than Conor on the ground and just absolutely owned him there once it went there but Conor, who has never really gassed out previously wouldn't gas in a proper training camp for 155.

Now I take it back to Marathon running, do you expect that a Marathon runner would run anywhere near the same time if he was 10KG heavier than his last athletic performance? If he had not trained extensively to run at that weight?

Again, no excuses, where Diaz really won this fight was how quickly he chewed up McGregor on the ground, had McGregor got out of that round and into Round 3 then he'd have a chance to have cleared his head and potentially got a second wind. I was amazed at how easily Diaz made it look on the ground, but standing up, Diaz was out matched in all fight aspects except Endurance and Durability, and they were enough.

 

[social]

You don't seem to understand the difference between "walk around" weight and "fight weight" which again means I can't really argue with you on this. Why do you think Floyd never fought any real opposition at 154 or 160 if weight makes no difference? Also McGregor rehydrates to 155ish when he's fighting at 145lbs, he doesn't walk around at 170lbs, he actually had to pack additional weight on for this fight that he normally wouldn't even carry walk weight.

And you really need to go watch Round 1 to see how many shots Diaz threw and Conor slipped. It was an energy level thing more than anything else, if you don't get that, I can't help you, it's not worth my time to try.

And the "McGregor got tagged" - Diaz got tagged 15 times, he just took it better. McGregor got hit once and was on queer street, a combination of exhaustion + not being used to taking a 170lb punch.

What you're asking effectively, since you love your Mayweather example, is that Mayweather within 3 months of fighting Pacquaio at 147, decides then he's going to face Andre Ward at 168 and expect that the fight will follow similar realities to Floyd at 147.

Even if you look at Floyd at 130-135 where he was a fight finisher, versus him at 147 where he was feather fisted, that should tell you what 5KG difference does, let alone 10KG.

Floyd turned pro at 126 lbs and fought all the way up to 152 against Canelo

In the Canelo fight, Mayweather weighed in at 150.5 and had LOST half a pound by the time he went into the ring so I think it's fair to say that by that time in his career, his fight weight and walking around weight were basically the same

McGregor (and Canelo for that matter) are totally different in that they literally kill themselves to make weight to ensure that they have a big advantage over naturally smaller men come fight night

It's not a criticism.

In fact, it's pretty much standard practice

However, you seem to ignore the fact that on one of the few times that McGragor has fought a credible opponent of roughly his own size, he got owned

 

[Jord]

Floyd turned pro at 126 lbs and fought all the way up to 152 against Canelo

In the Canelo fight, Mayweather weighed in at 150.5 and had LOST half a pound by the time he went into the ring so I think it's fair to say that by that time in his career, his fight weight and walking around weight were basically the same

McGregor (and Canelo for that matter) are totally different in that they literally kill themselves to make weight to ensure that they have a big advantage over naturally smaller men come fight night

It's not a criticism.

In fact, it's pretty much standard practice

However, you seem to ignore the fact that on one of the few times that McGragor has fought a credible opponent of roughly his own size, he got owned

What you're ignoring

1. Floyd went from 126lbs to 152lbs in the space of a 20 year fighting career.
2. Floyd fought at 154 against Oscar De La Hoya and Miguel Cotto prior to fighting Canelo at 152. He had been preparing himself for that weight over a number of years, and again only fought fighters who had also fought at 147. They weren't big 154lbers.
3. Floyd has avoided Golovkin, who fights at 160 but could make 154lbs because Golovkin is just way too big for him, even though Floyd had experience at 154lbs.
4. Again, Floyd had trained extensively at fighting at the 149-153 weight on fight night, because he had been weighing that since he was a 135lber, he just stopped the cut when he went to 147.
5. Again, Floyd was a feather fisted fighter at 147, let alone 154, despite being a damaging puncher at 130 and 135.

Let's go back in time, take Floyd from the Diego Corrales fight at 130lbs, give him three months to get ready to Antonio Margarito (realistically the best style proxy for Diaz I can think of) at 155lbs and see how he goes. I'd say Floyd still wins, because Floyd is a genius fighter and comparing him to anyone is like comparing someone to Bradman.

Also, to give you an idea, the dimensions of Floyd Mayweather Jr and Conor McGregor are very close - Floyd is 5'8, Reach of 74inches, McGregor is 5'9, reach of 74 inches.

But let's step back a second

1. Diaz is no Mayweather Jr. Diaz is hardly a Margarito
2. McGregor is no Mayweather Jr either, he's not even a Roy Jones Jr.

The comparison is completely stupid, except for pointing out the realities of fight weights, Floyd took 20 years to make the same sort of weight leap that McGregor was willing to make in 3 months.

 

[hendrix]

where Diaz really won this fight was how quickly he chewed up McGregor on the ground.

what. Did you watch the fight?

no.

By that point it was clear to anyone watching that McCregor had given up. The submission was a submission in the truest sense of the word. He was getting destroyed, went for a half hearted take down, then gave up his back, and finally gave up his head for one of the easiest chokes you'll ever see.

For the previous 2 minutes he'd been getting knocked around like a rag doll after wearing a couple of nice counters on the chin.

 

[social]

what. Did you watch the fight?

no.

By that point it was clear to anyone watching that McCregor had given up. The submission was a submission in the truest sense of the word. He was getting destroyed, went for a half hearted submission, then gave up his back, and finally gave up his head for one of the easiest chokes you'll ever see.

For the previous 2 minutes he'd been getting knocked around like a rag doll after wearing a couple of nice counters on the chin.

Tbh I thought he was basically out on his feet before it got anywhere near the mat

 

[social]

What you're ignoring

1. Floyd went from 126lbs to 152lbs in the space of a 20 year fighting career.
2. Floyd fought at 154 against Oscar De La Hoya and Miguel Cotto prior to fighting Canelo at 152. He had been preparing himself for that weight over a number of years, and again only fought fighters who had also fought at 147. They weren't big 154lbers.
3. Floyd has avoided Golovkin, who fights at 160 but could make 154lbs because Golovkin is just way too big for him, even though Floyd had experience at 154lbs.
4. Again, Floyd had trained extensively at fighting at the 149-153 weight on fight night, because he had been weighing that since he was a 135lber, he just stopped the cut when he went to 147.
5. Again, Floyd was a feather fisted fighter at 147, let alone 154, despite being a damaging puncher at 130 and 135.

Let's go back in time, take Floyd from the Diego Corrales fight at 130lbs, give him three months to get ready to Antonio Margarito (realistically the best style proxy for Diaz I can think of) at 155lbs and see how he goes. I'd say Floyd still wins, because Floyd is a genius fighter and comparing him to anyone is like comparing someone to Bradman.

Also, to give you an idea, the dimensions of Floyd Mayweather Jr and Conor McGregor are very close - Floyd is 5'8, Reach of 74inches, McGregor is 5'9, reach of 74 inches.

But let's step back a second

1. Diaz is no Mayweather Jr. Diaz is hardly a Margarito
2. McGregor is no Mayweather Jr either, he's not even a Roy Jones Jr.

The comparison is completely stupid, except for pointing out the realities of fight weights, Floyd took 20 years to make the same sort of weight leap that McGregor was willing to make in 3 months.

Forget about boxing and let's just stick to the facts as we know them

1. McGregor had been training for a fight at 155 for a couple of months

2. This was a fight that he pushed for and the UFC had to bend their own rules to accommodate him.

3. His opponent withdrew roughly 2 weeks before fight date

4. Diaz stepped in at short notice but admitted he couldn't make 155 as he hadn't been training.

5. Diaz suggested 165 or 160 at a stretch

6. McGregor knocked this back and stipulated 170 because he also had eyes on a title at that weight

7. Given the short time-frame remaining before the fight, McGregor had absolutely no chance to bulk up or radically change his training regimen.

However, he no longer had to cut weight and could eat & rehydrate to his heart's content

In summary, this was not a case of Conor being forced to go up 2 divisions against his will in a limited time-frame

What's more, he probably walked into the octagon at pretty much the same weight as he would have done had his previous opponent not pulled out

 

[Jord]

1. You still ignore the fact that he had 5KG more on his frame than he would have anticipated for a fight at 155
2. You still ignore the fact that he landed double the significant strikes while they were standing than Diaz did in the entire fight
3. You still ignore the fact that almost any other fighter tasting those shots would have been on queer street.
4. You still think Diaz is some sort of boxing genius when realistically he gets outboxed frequently and just has superb endurance and durability, meaning if you can't put him away or at least keep your pace up, he takes you deep and drowns you when you're out of energy. In McGregors case, it only took a round and a half.
5. You still ignore that while Diaz was damaging Conor on his feet, it wasn't until it went to ground that Conor got sliced open and put away, yes, Diaz did hurt Conor on his feet and kept him hurt for a minute before it went to the ground but that was more to do with exhaustion than skill.
6. You somehow think that Diaz wasn't a master on the ground, being able to quickly transition, land from the mounted position and force Conor to give his back, before flattening him out quickly and locking in the chin because you're too busy trying to justify that you think Diaz is a great skillful boxer, rather than being superb at taking shots and firing back, rather than being a genius level Ju Jitsu fighter who would have way more success should he focus on his Ju Jitsu

I'm done, I'd rather talk about it in a fight forum where people are being realistic about the fight.

 

[hendrix]

none of us are saying Diaz is a boxing genius. Just that he's much better than McCregor.

 

[Jord]

none of us are saying Diaz is a boxing genius. Just that he's much better than McCregor.

And you're wrong in saying so, the stats completely show that - he got outlanded 2 to 1 in the first round while the fight was standing up, despite having reach and height advantages.

 

[cnerd123]

And you're wrong in saying so, the stats completely show that - he got outlanded 2 to 1 in the first round while the fight was standing up, despite having reach and height advantages.

a) Ummm where are you getting your stats from? According to FightMetric Connor landed 28/74 strikes in Round 1, while Diaz landed 23/62. In round 2 the tallies were 33/66 and 54/90.

b) Landing punches isn't the same as landing effective punches.

The skill of a boxer doesn't just lie in landing strikes. You got to make those punches count. Find the chin instead of the arm. And you got to avoid getting punched; or at the very least, be able to roll with them so they don't hurt you a great deal.

I'm done, I'd rather talk about it in a fight forum where people are being realistic about the fight.

c) Go ahead. They'll all tell you that you're wrong too lol.

 

[duffer]

1. You still ignore the fact that he had 5KG more on his frame than he would have anticipated for a fight at 155
2. You still ignore the fact that he landed double the significant strikes while they were standing than Diaz did in the entire fight
3. You still ignore the fact that almost any other fighter tasting those shots would have been on queer street.
4. You still think Diaz is some sort of boxing genius when realistically he gets outboxed frequently and just has superb endurance and durability, meaning if you can't put him away or at least keep your pace up, he takes you deep and drowns you when you're out of energy. In McGregors case, it only took a round and a half.
5. You still ignore that while Diaz was damaging Conor on his feet, it wasn't until it went to ground that Conor got sliced open and put away, yes, Diaz did hurt Conor on his feet and kept him hurt for a minute before it went to the ground but that was more to do with exhaustion than skill.
6. You somehow think that Diaz wasn't a master on the ground, being able to quickly transition, land from the mounted position and force Conor to give his back, before flattening him out quickly and locking in the chin because you're too busy trying to justify that you think Diaz is a great skillful boxer, rather than being superb at taking shots and firing back, rather than being a genius level Ju Jitsu fighter who would have way more success should he focus on his Ju Jitsu

I'm done, I'd rather talk about it in a fight forum where people are being realistic about the fight.

These don't exist bro.

 

[cnerd123]

Also while I buy the argument that McGregor has never fought at 170 before, and as such had no real in-ring experience with that weight, I do feel that's adequately countered by the fact that Nate had literally no training camp for this fight. He was in good shape due to training for a Triathlon, but was lacking in sparring practice. So while you could argue that McGregor's 'inefficiency' arose from inexperience at 170, you also should accept Nate's own words that the first round was a 'warmup' for him, and that had he had a full camp for this fight, McGregor wouldn't have even touched him.

I feel like Jord is just basing his judgement on Nate's boxing by this fight alone, where things were pretty even in round 1, except that Diaz was left bleeding at the end of it. But if he was watching closer he'd have noticed how many wild swings at the air McG made in that first round, all a result of Nate's superior head movement, and how McG's power shots weren't rocking Diaz. McG hit the arm and the gloves several times (he even said so himself), and even when he went past them Diaz was able to roll with the punches and get them glancing off. The same aggressive striking has given Connor a lot of success, but it wasn't working against a man who had the boxing know-how to weather it. That and he didn't have the reach advantage anymore, so caught Diaz at the far end of his strikes, making them less effective.

And in Round 2, that straight to the chin by Diaz wasn't an accident. The reason he landed that so perfectly and powerfull is because of his superior reach, and his excellent boxing ability. He's every bit a powerful striker as McG is, but with better aim and defense. McG couldn't land a blow like that not because he was unlucky, but because Diaz was so good at avoiding it.

Boxing ability isn't just striking. You gotta protect yourself. Diaz weathered McG's assaults, but McG couldn't return the favour. That's why he lost.'

And yea, if you've watched more of the Diaz brothers fight, you'll see why their boxing ability is so highly ranked. The brothers are fantastic boxers, Nate himself regularly fights at 155 but had a 2-2 record at 170 being the 'smaller guy' because of his skill.

 

[Ikki]

Was never a true Conor fan but you can't deny his skill. I think he got ****y in the fight and underestimated that he'd need to make changes with the weight consideration. Until that hit from Diaz in the 2nd, it looked like he was outclassing him and I think Conor got too concerned with showing his skills than winning the fight.

Credit to Diaz, man can take a punch. There were 3-4 punches there that would usually knock most fighters the **** out. Once he got that punch himself, Conor was woozy until the end; he was fighting just to stand up right.

 

[Ikki]

what. Did you watch the fight?

no.

By that point it was clear to anyone watching that McCregor had given up. The submission was a submission in the truest sense of the word. He was getting destroyed, went for a half hearted take down, then gave up his back, and finally gave up his head for one of the easiest chokes you'll ever see.

For the previous 2 minutes he'd been getting knocked around like a rag doll after wearing a couple of nice counters on the chin.

When Diaz actually looked like a boxer was that spell at the end, but it was clear that the big shot he threw earlier rocked McGregor. There was no way Diaz was going toe-to-toe with Conor for the rest of the fight. Diaz was getting lit up until then, and outclassed.

 

[Jord]

I feel like Jord is just basing his judgement on Nate's boxing by this fight alone, where things were pretty even in round 1, except that Diaz was left bleeding at the end of it. But if he was watching closer he'd have noticed how many wild swings at the air McG made in that first round, all a result of Nate's superior head movement, and how McG's power shots weren't rocking Diaz. McG hit the arm and the gloves several times (he even said so himself), and even when he went past them Diaz was able to roll with the punches and get them glancing off. The same aggressive striking has given Connor a lot of success, but it wasn't working against a man who had the boxing know-how to weather it. That and he didn't have the reach advantage anymore, so caught Diaz at the far end of his strikes, making them less effective.

I feel like when people here have their opinions disagreed with, they make some baseless crap up like "Oh, he must have only watched this fight" even though I've been dropping history points that were 10-15 years old.

Not worth it. I just get warned because apparently I'm not allowed to argue points here.

 

[cnerd123]

When Diaz actually looked like a boxer was that spell at the end, but it was clear that the big shot he threw earlier rocked McGregor. There was no way Diaz was going toe-to-toe with Conor for the rest of the fight. Diaz was getting lit up until then, and outclassed.

I really didn't see Diaz getting outclassed. I'll watch the fight again but I scored the first round 10-9 McGregor. Outclassed is a strong word to use.

That big hit is definitely what won the fight for Diaz though. Having said that, that's been the Diaz brothers MO since forever. Land a couple of big hits while boxing, force the opponent to take you to the ground, and beat them with BJJ. And yea, they're famous for their tough chins. Its why they've had success being the 'small guy' in their fights. They've eaten shots from men bigger and strongner than McG.

 

[hendrix]

They're also vegans so have better erections than McCregor, if you're into that sort of thing.

 

[indiaholic]

Jord, nobody warns you because you argue. The warnings are because you are a ****.

 

[Ikki]

I really didn't see Diaz getting outclassed. I'll watch the fight again but I scored the first round 10-9 McGregor. Outclassed is a strong word to use.

That big hit is definitely what won the fight for Diaz though. Having said that, that's been the Diaz brothers MO since forever. Land a couple of big hits while boxing, force the opponent to take you to the ground, and beat them with BJJ. And yea, they're famous for their tough chins. Its why they've had success being the 'small guy' in their fights. They've eaten shots from men bigger and strongner than McG.

There are landing punches and landing punches haha. Diaz, even earlier when he was landing, wasn't really doing much to McGregor who was sidestepping, shuffling and hitting him with a variety of shots...straight to the face. I'm not gonna pretend to be a hardcore expert, but dude looked like he was getting ****ed up. You don't ever wanna get hit in boxing, of course, but there are some shots you'll take. You wouldn't want to ever take 1 of those McGregor punches, let alone 3 or 4 even if you've eaten/can eat big shots.

I think where McGregor erred, and he admitted this, is that he thought he was landing blows that should've knocked Diaz out and instead of relying on being technically superior to get in and out; he was just going in and in and in because he didn't see Diaz as a threat (and until a that big punch he wasn't, really). That was the mistake because once Diaz landed a big one he was rocky and slow - he was close to lights out and barely staying on his feet.

The other point McGregor was right about was that Diaz ate those shots and stayed 'efficient' which I guess he means as really calm and not doing any more than he had to. Whereas McGregor was putting on a semi-exhibition and when he got rocked he panicked.