Is Javed Miandad somewhat underrated and who was the best against the WIs in the 80s?

[Red]

Was thinking about Miandad and wondering if he is underrated a bit. Hardly is mentioned when great players are mentioned, and very rarely do you see him in a (non Pakistani) ATG team.

Did a bit of stat-diving to see how consistent his record was against all opponents in all conditions, and was not surprised to see it was excellent everywhere and against everyone except the WIs, which is hardly surprising considering Miandad played in the late 70s/80s/early 90s. Against everyone else his record is very good.

So a few questions. How harshly should we judge players based on one blip in their record against an incredibly powerful bowling opponent from their era? Especially when they are consistent against everyone else. And secondly, which players have actually excelled against excellent bowling attacks. I'm thinking players who have excelled against attacks like:

Holding, Roberts, Garner, Croft, Marshall thru to the Ambrose, Marshall Walsh era
McGrath, Warne, Gillepsie + one
Wasim, Waqar, Imran, Qadir
Trueman, Statham, Tyson, Laker

If I'm wrong about some of the above, I'm sure someone will correct me.

 

[Athlai]

Border, Gooch, Crowe, Vengsarkar, Miandad and Gavaskar all had pretty solid figures against them during this time.

 

[watson]

Javed Miandad's stats against the West Indies are OK but nothing to get excited about, especially at Home.

Home V West Indies
Tests = 9
Runs = 429
Average = 26.81
HS = 76
50s = 4
100s = 0

Away V West Indies
Tests = 7
Runs = 405
Average = 33.75
HS = 114
50s = 0
100s = 2


However, Miandad's 1988 series against Marshall, Ambrose, Walsh, Patterson, and Benjamin was excellent. His critical century during the 1st Test in Barbados allowed Imran to take 11 wickets for the match and bowl Pakistan to victory.

1st Test: West Indies v Pakistan at Georgetown, Apr 2-6, 1988 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo


The series ended 1 -1 and was the only time that the West Indies were seriously challenged on their home turf during the 1980s.

1988 Series in West Indies
Tests = 3
Runs = 282
Average 56.40
HS = 114
50s = 0
100s = 2


Perhaps we can overlook Miandad's mediocre average against the West Indies because of his runs in this iconic series?

 

[Pratters]

SJS once made a post about how no one had good figures v the great West Indian attacks. He showed how even Gavaskar's figures become average when he faced the best Windies fast bowling attacks compared to his record v WI overall.

 

[Hurricane]

I feel this thread deserves more love so I will chip in even though I don't recall too much of Miandad growing up. The permanent memory I have of him is his epic 1992 world cup final inning.

In some ways I regard that Pakistan innings as one of the greatest in the history of the finals. The way he and Imran built a partnership was incredible.

 

[fredfertang]

Alan Lamb got six centuries against them but still only averaged 34 - he was as good as anyone I saw, except Graeme Fowler, obviously

 

[Hurricane]

Alan Lamb got six centuries against them but still only averaged 34 - he was as good as anyone I saw, except Graeme Fowler, obviously

I have a searing memory of Alan Lamb being on One News sports highlights having a ball from Patrick Patterson zoom in from 2 feet outside offstump to destroy his offstump and send it cartwheeling backward. England were smoked that day.

And with each "smoking" that the Windies doled out it became harder and harder tour there because you not only had to face the the West Indies Attack but you had to face up the legend of the West Indies Attack.

At school we had lengthy discussions about what padding we would wear if we were called up to represent the blackcaps against the windies. Usually answers including padding on every part of the body conceivable so that running between wickets would have been impossible.

Matters weren't helped by this image of Gatting circulating the globe and making batsman gulp and basically dream of other professions

 

[watson]

If you look at Graham Gooch's record against the West Indies, both home and away over an 11 year period, then he is one of the greatest ever players of fast bowling in history.

Tests = 26
Runs = 2197
Average = 44.83
50s = 13
100s = 5

Mark Waugh has a slightly higher average but he missed out on Marshall and Holding at their peak. Gooch met them all at their best. For example;

2nd Test: England v West Indies at Lord's, Jun 19-24, 1980 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo (Note the Strike Rate)

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63484.html


This article is pretty good;

Shocking revelations: The best batsmen against world champion WI and Australian teams are not Sunil Gavaskar and Sachin Tendulkar respectively

The West Indians of 1976-1995 and the Australians of 1995-2007 dominated the cricket world as no other team has ever done. Arunabha Sengupta*crunches data to find out who the best batsmen were against their formidable attacks and in their lairs. Surprisingly, the list against West Indies is not headed by Sunil Gavaskar. Nor is the one against Australia led by Sachin Tendulkar.....

Shocking revelations: The best batsmen against world champion WI and Australian teams are not Sunil Gavaskar and Sachin Tendulkar respectively - Latest Cricket News, Articles & Videos at CricketCountry.com

 

[OverratedSanity]

I feel this thread deserves more love so I will chip in even though I don't recall too much of Miandad growing up. The permanent memory I have of him is his epic 1992 world cup final inning.

In some ways I regard that Pakistan innings as one of the greatest in the history of the finals. The way he and Imran built a partnership was incredible.

One if the most weirdly overrated partnerships of all time. They did a decent job laying the platform but before Inzy went nuts there was a distinct feeling that the score wasn't enough to test NZ. Even most diehard Pakistani fans I've spoken to feel the same way.

 

[smash84]

One if the most weirdly overrated partnerships of all time. They did a decent job laying the platform but before Inzy went nuts there was a distinct feeling that the score wasn't enough to test NZ. Even most diehard Pakistani fans I've spoken to feel the same way.

No, it isn't overrated at all. It was extremely important in order to lay a platform for inzy and wasim to hit out.

Are you confusing the final and sf?

 

[Hurricane]

No, it isn't overrated at all. It was extremely important in order to lay a platform for inzy and wasim to hit out.

Are you confusing the final and sf?

I agree with Smali.

 

[smash84]

In fact I remember reading an article somewhere on how it was one of the great partnerships of world cup history. Someone wrote a wonderful article about it somewhere, I will try to dig it up if i can find it.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I was thinking of the SF. Ignore me.

 

[Hurricane]

In fact I remember reading an article somewhere on how it was one of the great partnerships of world cup history. Someone wrote a wonderful article about it somewhere, I will try to dig it up if i can find it.

Yes please, I would very much like that.

 

[weldone]

Yes and Gavaskar

 

[Top_Cat]

Bit underrated now maybe but at the time was definitely rated as one of the top bats of his time.

 

[Red]

He was a middle order master in ODIs also. Very much like Deano, just worked the angles and knew how to craft an innings through the middle period to set up big team totals.

Now that guys like DeVilliers and Kohli have come along with such sustained power, I think it's been lost how crucial a role these guys played in 1980s ODIs.

 

[GotSpin]

I agree with Smali.

Do you need a washcloth?

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Miandad was an obnoxious loathsome dick. But as a middle order batsman during his time the only two I would rank above him for certain are Viv Richards and Greg Chappell.

 

[doesitmatter]

Border says Hi...One more under-rated player .I would like to put him right at top or will say he is better than Javed in Tests.. Border has a great record against WI as well and one of the few players who played good against their pace attack..In ODIs though it is a different story..I feel Javed is grossly under-rated in this format..Miandad was a pioneer in more ways than one..Master of running between the wickets,one of the first to play unorthodox strokes like Reverse sweeps, one of the first top chaser ....