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Thread: Time for a reassessment of Indian quicks?

  1. #1
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    Time for a reassessment of Indian quicks?

    I was watching Yadav and Aaron against Australia earlier today, and it got me thinking: what is it, really, with India and true pace bowling? Both youngsters are promising, and capable of bowling quick and hostile spells that can trouble even the best batsmen. Yet the question remains: just how much have they kicked on since they first emerged two-three years ago? And if there is any relative lack of progress, are they to blame, or are there structural issues at play which would necessitate a reassessment? I've read all sorts of theories purporting to explain the historic dearth of world class Indian pace bowlers (especially by comparison to neighbouring Pakistan) over the years, from the absence of red meat in the national diet to the way pitches are prepared and the consequent focus on spin and lack of emphasis on fast bowling as a weapon at all levels of the game. I don't credit the first but find the second highly plausible. If the detrimental effect of such a structural hindrance to an Indian quick is fully baked in, it seems clear to me that he is not really on a level playing field with his peers in places like PAK, ENG, WI, AUS and SA, statistically speaking. Could it be time for a fundamental reassessment of the worth of Indian quicks, past and present?

    As good a bowler as Srinath is now remembered as decent, but nothing outstanding. And superficially, the stats support such an assessment: he averaged just over 30 in Tests. Yet having watched him at his peak bowling with wonderful control and consistently quickly (at around 90 MPH) on unresponsive home pitches, and losing nothing by comparison with more heralded visiting quicks from WI, AUS, SA etc, I can't help feeling that said assessment is more than a little unfair. I genuinely believe that Srinath would have averaged 25-27, rather than just over 30, in Tests, had he played home Tests in SA, ENG, or AUS over his career. And, whatever bowling averages Yadav and Aaron end up with, I guess it would be fair in each case similarly to shave 3-5 runs from them to compensate for the 'India factor' - whatever it is and whatever the respective contributions of its constituent components. And whilst the tariff doesn't apply only to genuine pace, bowlers like the above-named seem to be penalized very harshly, whilst bowlers like Kapil and Zaheer, whose metier is medium pace swing, and who also fall foul of the pitch-preparation and spin-favouring-orientation components of the 'India factor', tend to be less harshly penalized. One needs to shave 2-3 runs from their career averages to get a better idea of their worth, as opposed to the 3-5 run deduction from those striving for genuine pace and hostility. To whose number I've just realized I'd also have to add Ishant :-(
    Last edited by CWB304; 20-12-2014 at 08:16 AM.
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  2. #2
    International Coach hendrix's Avatar
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    I dunno about shaving off averages as I don't particularly reference bowling averages when describing the worth of a bowler.

    Zaheer had a 2-3 year period when he was world class.

    As for Umesh and Varun, I think Aus is a hard place to tour for any inexperienced player. The runs come so quickly that it's impossible to exercise control. That's unlike anywhere in the world really. Umesh in particular needs to be given plenty more opportunities in bowling friendly conditions so he can build confidence in his game.

  3. #3
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Burgey's Avatar
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    No, Indian quicks are generally rubbish. Every 18 months there's another discussion about the Next Big Thing and 1.3 billion people hope they've finally found someone good, but really they're almost always rubbish a year later.

    It just needs to be accepted they can't produce them while ever they grow up playing on the jokes they call pitches over there, and while ever they're vegetarians, as the demise of Peter Siddle proves once and for all.

    The solution is:

    a. Prepare real pitches, not those horrible spinning jokes which they think are good because they keep them decent at home, but are really detrimental to their performance in real cricketing countries; and

    b. Eat a ****ing steak. Seriously, imagine a fast bowler bitching because he couldn't get a ****ing samosa at a ground. There's your problem right there.
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  4. #4
    The Tiger King smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    No, Indian quicks are generally rubbish. Every 18 months there's another discussion about the Next Big Thing and 1.3 billion people hope they've finally found someone good, but really they're almost always rubbish a year later.

    It just needs to be accepted they can't produce them while ever they grow up playing on the jokes they call pitches over there, and while ever they're vegetarians, as the demise of Peter Siddle proves once and for all.

    The solution is:

    a. Prepare real pitches, not those horrible spinning jokes which they think are good because they keep them decent at home, but are really detrimental to their performance in real cricketing countries; and

    b. Eat a ****ing steak. Seriously, imagine a fast bowler bitching because he couldn't get a ****ing samosa at a ground. There's your problem right there.
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

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    Cricket, Lovely Cricket Pratters's Avatar
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    We lack the discipline and the training. Always bring up players but are not able to develop and nurture them properly.

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    International Captain Migara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    No, Indian quicks are generally rubbish. Every 18 months there's another discussion about the Next Big Thing and 1.3 billion people hope they've finally found someone good, but really they're almost always rubbish a year later.

    It just needs to be accepted they can't produce them while ever they grow up playing on the jokes they call pitches over there, and while ever they're vegetarians, as the demise of Peter Siddle proves once and for all.

    The solution is:

    a. Prepare real pitches, not those horrible spinning jokes which they think are good because they keep them decent at home, but are really detrimental to their performance in real cricketing countries; and

    b. Eat a ****ing steak. Seriously, imagine a fast bowler bitching because he couldn't get a ****ing samosa at a ground. There's your problem right there.
    It's allowed to bitch about baked beans though.
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  7. #7
    International Coach hendrix's Avatar
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    I don't understand why they haven't poached Vaas. Or maybe they have but he's too loyal.

    Damien Wright another option.

  8. #8
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
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    Got a big craving for a few samosas now.

  9. #9
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Top_Cat's Avatar
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    Oh my god yes.

  10. #10
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Burgey's Avatar
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    **** yeah Samosas are the shizz.

    Back to the cricket though. You look at a bloke like Siddle. Got ***** whipped into becoming a vego, adopts an Indian diet the starts bowling pies like an Indian quick. It can't be a coincidence.

  11. #11
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
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    With that green sauce.

  12. #12
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Top_Cat's Avatar
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    Whilst I do support the idea that oz is a tough first tour, Srinath looked threatening here on his first tour. He just never took poles here because his only tours were well before and well after he was at his best due to a monstrous gap in schedules which the FTP was designed to address.

    A trap a lot of foreign quicks fall into is going hard for movement early on. Aussie pitches tend to punish that because whilst good for quicks, the bounce is great for batting too so if you come out all guns blazing, you may also go for plenty but minus wickets to show for it. Guys who've done well here tend to be the guys who bowl relatively dry in their early spells and build pressure on the bats before trying a big outie here or an in-ducker there, like Curtly and Steyn did. McG built his career out of it and just about every Aussie quick worth his salt knows it. And, speaking of Siddle, it's part of why he's fallen away.
    Last edited by Top_Cat; 20-12-2014 at 04:12 PM.
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  13. #13
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
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    Is it the case that basically half of India is vego and the other half are carnivores? I feel like I read that somewhere. Where have the half decent Indian quicks come from, and did they eat meat? Kapil, Srinath etc?

    Aaron was bowling some heat yesterday. Into the 140s. Bowling **** areas but it was quick. Is he vego?

    Btw guys, I'm married to a vegan. She's not militant by any means though. And the dishes she makes are brilliant side dishes to whatever I happen to throw on the BBQ. Works well.

  14. #14
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Burgey's Avatar
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    That should have been Siddle's approach ffs. So disappointing.

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    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend zorax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Hill View Post
    Btw guys, I'm married to a vegan. She's not militant by any means though. And the dishes she makes are brilliant side dishes to whatever I happen to throw on the BBQ. Works well.
    How fast does she bowl though?

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