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Thread: DoG’s Top 100 Test Batsmen - Bowling Discussion

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    International Vice-Captain Days of Grace's Avatar
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    DoG’s Top 100 Test Batsmen - Bowling Discussion

    PLEASE KEEP ALL BOWLING DISCUSSION OUT OF THE BATTING THREAD AND POST YOUR ESSAYS HERE

    Quote Originally Posted by Singh Is King View Post
    Chill guys I was only stating what DOG was stating himself thay he was lower because Indias win rate. If India had had at least average bowlers he would been where he deserves which is top 3, just a shame there ain't a way to incorporate indias rubbish bowling lol. thanks for your response DOG keep up the good work.
    and yes dravid would of been higher in India didn't have crap bowlers to!
    Nah, I'm gonna bite. What the **** is this about India having a "rubbish" bowling attack? Kumble, Srinath, Harbhajan and Zaheer Khan are all top 100 bowlers.
    Last edited by nightprowler10; 30-08-2013 at 09:30 AM.
    Greatest Ever Test XI: JB Hobbs, L Hutton, DG Bradman (c), IVA Richards, BC Lara, GS Sobers, AC Gilchrist (wk), Imran Khan, RJ Hadlee, MD Marshall, SK Warne 12th man: M Muralitharan


    Favorite XI: WG Grace, VT Trumper, IVA Richards, DCS Compton, FMM Worrell (c), AC Gilchrist (wk), CL Cairns, SK Warne, FS Trueman, SE Bond, T Richardson 12th man: H Larwood

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    Hall of Fame Member NUFAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Days of Grace View Post
    Nah, I'm gonna bite. What the **** is this about India having a "rubbish" bowling attack? Kumble, Srinath, Harbhajan and Zaheer Khan are all top 100 bowlers.
    Yessss Bring it on DoG, start it immediately following the batting one (maybe enjoy a Belgian beer and salad first for all your hard work).

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    International Regular kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NUFAN View Post
    Yessss Bring it on DoG, start it immediately following the batting one (maybe enjoy a Belgian beer and salad first for all your hard work).
    Would be great.

    What I have noticed though is most bowler ratings seem to focus too much on longevity/total wickets and WPM. Once the WPM is 5 or over that's good enough and points should max out there, as it seems to reward bowlers who had little support otherwise. For mine, the most important role of bowlers is to win matches, so wins, average and s/r followed by wpm should be the focus.

    Just my humble opinion.
    Aus. XI
    Simpson^ | Hayden | Bradman | Chappell^ | Ponting | Border* | Gilchrist+ | Davidson3 | Warne4^ | Lillee1 | McGrath2


    W.I. XI
    Greenidge | Hunte | Richards^ | Headley* | Lara^ | Sobers5^ | Walcott+ | Marshall1 | Ambrose2 | Holding3 | Garner4

    S.A. XI
    Richards^ | Smith*^ | Amla | Pollock | Kallis5^ | Nourse | Waite+ | Procter3 | Steyn1 | Tayfield4 | Donald2

    Eng. XI
    Hobbs | Hutton*^ | Hammond^ | Compton | Barrington | Botham5^ | Knott | Trueman1 | Laker4 | Larwood2 | Barnes3

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    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    Would be great.

    What I have noticed though is most bowler ratings seem to focus too much on longevity/total wickets and WPM. Once the WPM is 5 or over that's good enough and points should max out there, as it seems to reward bowlers who had little support otherwise. For mine, the most important role of bowlers is to win matches, so wins, average and s/r followed by wpm should be the focus.

    Just my humble opinion.
    I actually agree about WPM (it needs to be a factor to stop someone who took 15 wickets in 100 Tests at a decent average from being rated extremely highly for example, but I don't think Hadlee should really be getting extra points for having a greater WPM when compared to Marshall for example) but I completely disagree about wins. Any rating system should look to standardise and remove the variables that exist as a result of bowlers playing in different teams and factoring in wins would just exaggerate them. You talk about WPM favouring bowlers who had no support; a win function would just favour the opposite.
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    Sanga has done well but Murali has done better. In my opinion, Murali is simply the best off spinner in history of cricket and I can't make that kind of statement for Sanga.
    Sanga isn't the best off spinner in the history of cricket? News to me.


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    International Regular kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    I actually agree about WPM (it needs to be a factor to stop someone who took 15 wickets in 100 Tests at a decent average from being rated extremely highly for example, but I don't think Hadlee should really be getting extra points for having a greater WPM when compared to Marshall for example) but I completely disagree about wins. Any rating system should look to standardise and remove the variables that exist as a result of bowlers playing in different teams and factoring in wins would just exaggerate them. You talk about WPM favouring bowlers who had no support; a win function would just favour the opposite.
    Fully agree with that argument, what I was saying with regard to wins though is that the same way that DoG rates hundreds more in wins than in high scoring draws, then performances and 5fors should count more in wins.

    But yes cap wpm after 5 and also cap longevity similar to the batting ratings.

    Of equally great importance, place greater weight on percentage of top order wickets taken over lower order wickets, especially #9-11.
    Last edited by kyear2; 28-08-2013 at 06:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    Fully agree with that argument, what I was saying with regard to wins though is that the same way that DoG rates hundreds more in wins than in high scoring draws, then performances and 5fors should count more in wins.

    But yes cap wpm after 5 and also cap longevity similar to the batting ratings.

    Of equally great importance, place greater weight on percentage of top order wickets taken over lower order wickets, especially #9-11.
    Grimmett had O'Reilly supporting/leading the attack. Still averaged 5.82 wpm. Gonna cut off that .82? Kinda hurts Barnes too, the bowlers he played with were no slouches iirc. Excellent to see Hammond above Viv and Sachin.
    ATG World XI
    1. J.B Hobbs 2. H. Sutcliffe 3. D.G Bradman 4. W.R Hammond 5. G.S Sobers 6. M.J Procter 7. A.C Gilchrist 8. M.D Marshall 9. S.K Warne 10. M. Muralitharan 11. G.D McGrath

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coronis View Post
    Grimmett had O'Reilly supporting/leading the attack. Still averaged 5.82 wpm. Gonna cut off that .82? Kinda hurts Barnes too, the bowlers he played with were no slouches iirc. Excellent to see Hammond above Viv and Sachin.
    I guess it should factor in whether his teammates (bowlers) were good. For example, if you are in a great attack and yet still have a high wpm then it should definitely count in your favour IMO.
    Last edited by Ikki; 28-08-2013 at 08:16 PM.
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    International Captain hendrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    For example, if you are in a great attack and yet still have a high wpm then it should definitely count in your favour IMO.
    why?

    You're already getting the advantage of simply having taking a bunch of wickets. There's no need to give an additional factor there.
    Last edited by hendrix; 28-08-2013 at 09:05 PM.

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    International Vice-Captain Days of Grace's Avatar
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    Bowling averages, strike-rates, and WPM have all been adjusted.

    But let's discuss all that when I reveal the bowlers.

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    International Regular kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Days of Grace View Post
    Bowling averages, strike-rates, and WPM have all been adjusted.

    But let's discuss all that when I reveal the bowlers.
    You just made mine and especially Nufan's day.

    I eagerly anticipate.

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    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hendrix View Post
    why?

    You're already getting the advantage of simply having taking a bunch of wickets. There's no need to give an additional factor there.
    How do you mean? If you are in a bowling line-up with great competition it is harder to accumulate wickets in the sense of wpm. There are a finite amount of wickets one can take, to have to share them amongst your teammates means there'll be less for you.
    Last edited by Ikki; 29-08-2013 at 12:06 AM.

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    International Captain hendrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    How do you mean? If you are in a bowling line-up with great competition it is harder to accumulate wickets in the sense of wpm. There are a finite amount of wickets one can take, to have to share them amongst your teammates means there'll be less for you.
    yeah, but you also get the advantage of not having to bowl long spells or bowl too much against batsmen who have settled in - that's a significant advantage in terms of average.

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    International Captain hendrix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    How do you mean? If you are in a bowling line-up with great competition it is harder to accumulate wickets in the sense of wpm. There are a finite amount of wickets one can take, to have to share them amongst your teammates means there'll be less for you.
    if you're getting high wickets per match, you're taking a lot of wickets. You've already proven your worth by taking wickets. The skill in taking wickets as part of a good attack is already reflected by the number of wickets you have!

    you also get the advantage of not having to bowl long spells or bowl too much against batsmen who have settled in - that's a significant advantage in terms of average.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    How do you mean? If you are in a bowling line-up with great competition it is harder to accumulate wickets in the sense of wpm. There are a finite amount of wickets one can take, to have to share them amongst your teammates means there'll be less for you.
    already done and dusted argument. Better bowling units will have more chances to bowl at the tail as they hunt in a pack and do itconsistently. But lone rangers will get to the tail less often and have more top / middle order wickets. Hence good bowling units bowlers will have better averages and SRs offsetting the advantages of WPM. The other use of WPI or overs per innings to show how fit was the said bowler. Unfit fat ****s cannot bowl long spells and cannot have high WPIs unless they are uber talented.
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    cant think of any unfit fat **** atg bowlers tbh
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    Well yeah Tendy is probably better than Bradman, but Bradman was 70 years ago, if he grew up in the modern era he'd still easily be the best. Though he wasn't, can understand the argument for Tendy even though I don't agree.
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