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Thread: English ATG Team- Open Voting

  1. #91
    Eds
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howe_zat View Post
    So were all the other options though.
    I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying.

    I'm not just comparing Barnes to his contemporaries; I'm comparing him to the other options for this theoretical side, whom Barnes is competing with. He was more successful than the others as an opening bowler, therefore should be considered as one in a side such as this.
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  2. #92
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eds View Post
    At the end of the day, Sydney Barnes was an opening bowler. That's where he bowled. And in that position, he was more successful than any of the other options.
    Every bowler selected thus far was an opening bowler, and was at their most successful in that position.

    It's a matter of which opening bowler of the 3 selected (I assume there will be three) will be best in their new position as first change.
    Last edited by watson; 03-11-2012 at 08:05 AM.
    Len Hutton - Jack Hobbs - Ted Dexter - David Gower - Walter Hammond - Frank Woolley - Ian Botham - Alan Knott - Hedley Verity - John Snow - Fred Trueman

  3. #93
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Regardless of what Barnes bowled, he opened the bowling for the reason. If he was wasting it and would be just as effective with the older ball he'd surely have opened the bowling a lot less than he did; how often did O'Reilly open the bowling?

    Whether Barnes opens the bowling the not, I'm going to roll with two genuine seamers + Barnes + a genuine spinner as my four man specialist bowling attack. Barnes was England's best ever bowler by a fair distance so I'd like to give him first crack and his usual role, but if he's to bowl first change instead so Bedser, Larwood or someone like that can open the bowling instead I'm not too fussed. I definitely want him in the side though so lets get that sorted first.
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  4. #94
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eds View Post
    I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying.

    I'm not just comparing Barnes to his contemporaries; I'm comparing him to the other options for this theoretical side, whom Barnes is competing with. He was more successful than the others as an opening bowler, therefore should be considered as one in a side such as this.
    And we're saying new ball bowlers should be fast given the choice. I can't see how Barnes would be an improvement over Trueman + Snow/Larwood with the new ball. Assuming that the Test match isn't being played on a sticky quagmire, that would be different. I'm thinking of a flat wicket, 2012 style.


  5. #95
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    And we're saying new ball bowlers should be fast given the choice. I can't see how Barnes would be an improvement over Trueman + Snow/Larwood with the new ball. Assuming that the Test match isn't being played on a sticky quagmire, that would be different. I'm thinking of a flat wicket, 2012 style.
    Barnes's job was to develop a style of bowling that would make him more successful than his contemporaries on the pitches he got; not to develop a style of bowling that would've been theoretically successful some 100+ years later. You're judging him by something that he was not only trying to attempt but something that would've been entirely useless to him at the time. Can you imagine the looks he would've got if he told his captain that he was developing an entire new action because he was trying to get the new pill in watson's all-time great team, even though it'd mean they'd almost certainly win less games at the time?

    Was Barnes further ahead of the average opening bowler of his time than Snow was of his? Yes? Get him in tharrr then. It's the only even vaguely reasonable way to compare eras like this, otherwise I can just pick a team of team of sweve bowlers every time because I've arbitrarily decided the match is going to be played on an 1890 English sticky.

  6. #96
    International 12th Man AndyZaltzHair's Avatar
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    Harold Larwood
    SF Barnes


    *Assuming Trueman can be selected later and coming as first change although he won't be happy at all
    Last edited by AndyZaltzHair; 03-11-2012 at 09:01 AM.
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  7. #97
    Cricketer Of The Year Cabinet96's Avatar
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    Barnes and Trueman for me too please.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    This English top three are cornflakes. They're not the most exciting thing out but they're pretty effective. Then the middle order are the sugar. Would be too much on their own but added to the cornflakes they add some much needed interest

    When KP returns he will be the banana..

  8. #98
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    He succeeded when bowling on wet slow pitches and especially on the matting pitches of South Africa againts an infant and overmatched opponent. His style would not be effective on modern pitches with the new ball.
    Aus. XI
    Simpson^ | Hayden | Bradman | Chappell^ | Ponting | Border* | Gilchrist+ | Davidson3 | Warne4^ | Lillee1 | McGrath2


    W.I. XI
    Greenidge | Hunte | Richards^ | Headley* | Lara^ | Sobers5^ | Walcott+ | Marshall1 | Ambrose2 | Holding3 | Garner4

    S.A. XI
    Richards^ | Smith*^ | Amla | Pollock | Kallis5^ | Nourse | Cameron+ | Procter3 | Steyn1 | Tayfield4 | Donald2

    Eng. XI
    Hobbs | Hutton*^ | Hammond^ | Compton | Barrington | Botham5^ | Knott | Trueman1 | Laker4 | Larwood2 | Barnes3

  9. #99
    International Debutant Viscount Tom's Avatar
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    Trueman and Tyson.
    AT-XI
    #J.Hobbs; #L.Hutton; #D.Bradman; #V.Richards; #G.Sobers; #A.Border; #A.Gilchrist; #K.Miller; #I.Khan; #S.Warne; #M.Marshall;

  10. #100
    Hall of Fame Member Howe_zat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    He succeeded when bowling on wet slow pitches and especially on the matting pitches of South Africa againts an infant and overmatched opponent. His style would not be effective on modern pitches with the new ball.
    Have we said that we're picking a side to play modern cricket?

  11. #101
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    Trueman and Bedser.

    Barnes the consummate minnow-basher.
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  12. #102
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    Barnes's job was to develop a style of bowling that would make him more successful than his contemporaries on the pitches he got; not to develop a style of bowling that would've been theoretically successful some 100+ years later. You're judging him by something that he was not only trying to attempt but something that would've been entirely useless to him at the time. Can you imagine the looks he would've got if he told his captain that he was developing an entire new action because he was trying to get the new pill in watson's all-time great team, even though it'd mean they'd almost certainly win less games at the time?

    Was Barnes further ahead of the average opening bowler of his time than Snow was of his? Yes? Get him in tharrr then. It's the only even vaguely reasonable way to compare eras like this, otherwise I can just pick a team of team of sweve bowlers every time because I've arbitrarily decided the match is going to be played on an 1890 English sticky.
    Perhaps we should state the pitch conditions during our next Draft in the Draft League as it would be facinating to see what type of teams people come up with - '1890 English Sticky'.

    Also, this is an incorrect question as it's not central to the brief (although still relevant): Was Barnes further ahead of the average opening bowler of his time than Snow was of his? Yes?

    The correct questions is: 'Who is more likely to dismiss Barry Richards (for example) with the new ball? Barnes or Snow?

    Or more broadly: 'Looking at both the batting line-up and bowling attack of the England ATG team and then contrasting to the South African ATG team (for example), who is more likely to win a 5-Test Series in a toe-toe fight?
    Last edited by watson; 03-11-2012 at 04:31 PM.

  13. #103
    Cricketer Of The Year Cabinet96's Avatar
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    But again that question depends on whether you're playing on an 19th century English wicket or a 1960's South African wicket.

    You can over complicate things by wondering how different bowlers and batsmen would have gone in different eras against different players, because ultimately, they wouldn't have played the same way if they were playing in a different era.

  14. #104
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabinet96 View Post
    But again that question depends on whether you're playing on an 19th century English wicket or a 1960's South African wicket.

    You can over complicate things by wondering how different bowlers and batsmen would have gone in different eras against different players, because ultimately, they wouldn't have played the same way if they were playing in a different era.
    Using your imagination to anticipate how SF Barnes would go against Barry Richards on a modern batting strip is half the fun - and highly relevant to creating opposing ATG teams.

    Personally, I think that Barnes would have no problems at all translating to the modern era, and Barry Richards to the 1900s for that matter.That's why I select them in an ATG Draft.

    But I am more hesitant with players like WG Grace, or Spofforth. I think that they would have real problems facing up to Marshall or Tendulkar in modern conditions, although both Marshall and Tendulkar would probably feel right at home in the 1890s after a short while of practice.

    But this is all conjecture of course.
    Last edited by watson; 03-11-2012 at 04:46 PM.

  15. #105
    International Vice-Captain Red Hill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howe_zat View Post
    Have we said that we're picking a side to play modern cricket?
    No. We haven't specified an era, and I don't think it's necessary. I think you just judge players on the era they played in and don't try to speculate on what might happen in another era.

    I guess the cliche stands here, "a champion in one era would always be a champion in another".

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