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Thread: Andy Roberts' place in the pantheon of Caribbean Pace Men

  1. #31
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    I find that Roberts is similar to Wasim in so much that those who played them, called them the best but their career stats just dont hold up. So they may have been the most skillful and hardest to face, buy not the most succesful.
    Last edited by kyear2; 26-06-2012 at 07:01 PM.
    Aus. XI
    Simpson^ | Hayden | Bradman | Chappell^ | Ponting | Border* | Gilchrist+ | Davidson3 | Warne4^ | Lillee1 | McGrath2


    W.I. XI
    Greenidge | Hunte | Richards^ | Headley* | Lara^ | Sobers5^ | Walcott+ | Marshall1 | Ambrose2 | Holding3 | Garner4

    S.A. XI
    Richards^ | Smith*^ | Amla | Pollock | Kallis5^ | Nourse | Waite+ | Procter3 | Steyn1 | Tayfield4 | Donald2

    Eng. XI
    Hobbs | Hutton*^ | Hammond^ | Compton | Barrington | Botham5^ | Knott | Trueman1 | Laker4 | Larwood2 | Barnes3

  2. #32
    International Captain wellAlbidarned's Avatar
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    It's no insult to Roberts to say that he simply wasn't quite as good as Marshall, Holding and co.
    Exit pursuing a beer

  3. #33
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wellAlbidarned View Post
    It's no insult to Roberts to say that he simply wasn't quite as good as Marshall, Holding and co.
    Awta.

    No shame at all, as I consider Marshall the best ever and Holding not far behind, with Ambrose somewhere in between.

  4. #34
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teja. View Post
    Sunil Gavaskar in Runs n' Ruins rates Roberts the best paceman he has had the privilege to face.

    I've also read from various accounts about his deadly slower bouncer.
    I think that you'll find that it's his fast bouncer that cleans up the batsman and is the 'deadly' delivery.

    It was 'deadly' because it was sometimes bowled after 1-2 slow easier bouncers. The batsman got lulled into a false sense of security, tried to hook, but then was too late on the shot and got whacked
    Last edited by watson; 26-06-2012 at 09:30 PM.
    "Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong" - Oscar Wilde


  5. #35
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    An interesting read;

    EIGHT GENIAL GIANTS: A PICTORIAL VIEW ACROSS 28 YEARS

    Posted by Anantha Narayanan on 04/08/2011

    ..........This is a graphical look at the 8 West Indian pace bowling giants who played across 28 years and 226 Tests. This required a lot of specialized programming work and the results have come out very nicely and pleasing to the eye. The layouts and formatting work itself took a few days. The readers can download the graphs, study these at leisure and come out with their conclusions.....

    It Figures | Cricket Blogs | ESPN Cricinfo
    Here is the best quote from the middle of the article;

    The second surprise is that in tests in which West Indies had fielded 4 pace bowlers, out of the selected 8, their win percentage is below 50. This indicates that the best combination was three top pace bowlers and one bowler of different type, a spinner or even a medium pace swing bowler, to maintain balance.
    Last edited by watson; 26-06-2012 at 09:26 PM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    I find that Roberts is similar to Wasim in so much that those who played them, called them the best but their career stats just dont hold up. So they may have been the most skillful and hardest to face, buy not the most succesful.
    possibly

  7. #37
    International Vice-Captain Monk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    I find that Roberts is similar to Wasim in so much that those who played them, called them the best but their career stats just dont hold up. So they may have been the most skillful and hardest to face, buy not the most succesful.
    I agree with this. When considering bowling, stats don't always give a true picture, and a 3 or 4 run variance between bowling averages or SRs really doesn't matter that much. It's slitting hairs a bit.

    I find that a lot of people who haven't faced Marshall look at his low average and conclude he must have been "the best". But a lot of people who faced these guys don't consider him "the best", and rate Lillee or Roberts more highly. While Marshall's stats are better, a lot of players disliked facing the others more.

    Not that I am in a position to talk! The best bowler I have ever faced was Damian Fleming when he was 2 or 3 years past his prime, and he was far too good for me!

  8. #38
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    I believe that even more than for a batsman, stats are relevant and do count. Your job is to keep the run rate down and take wickets, primarily top order wickets. Marshall not only did that better than anyone else of the modern era, also had all of the tools and was blisteringly fast and hostile when he wanted to be. He could adapt to any condition and be succesful, be it India, England or flat or bouncy Aussie wickets. He to me was the Hobbs and Bradman of his craft and along with Warne to me are by some distance the greatest bowlers of the modern or possibly any era, with a though to bowlers like Barnes or O'Reilly who we never really saw.

  9. #39
    International Vice-Captain Days of Grace's Avatar
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    Interesting that Roberts retired quite early at 32. Was it the sheer workload that eventually got to him?

    Can someone shed some light on this?

    Marshall
    Ambrose
    Walsh
    Garner
    Holding
    Roberts

    for me in terms of sheer stats. Walsh probably the most underrated fast bowler of all.

  10. #40
    U19 12th Man ImpatientLime's Avatar
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    Find it a little astonishing that Marshall over Ambrose is so clear cut in this thread. Ambrose is not celebrated enough these days for my liking.

  11. #41
    International Vice-Captain Days of Grace's Avatar
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    It's close. Ambrose's performances over a very good Australian team in the 1990s almost put him level with Marshall, for mine. Marshall was just great against everyone, even though the overall standard of batting lineups he bowled to in the 1980s were arguably lower than what Ambrose (and Walsh) had to overcome.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    I believe that even more than for a batsman, stats are relevant and do count. Your job is to keep the run rate down and take wickets, primarily top order wickets. Marshall not only did that better than anyone else of the modern era, also had all of the tools and was blisteringly fast and hostile when he wanted to be. He could adapt to any condition and be succesful, be it India, England or flat or bouncy Aussie wickets. He to me was the Hobbs and Bradman of his craft and along with Warne to me are by some distance the greatest bowlers of the modern or possibly any era, with a though to bowlers like Barnes or O'Reilly who we never really saw.
    this is going over board I think

    How is Marshall the Bradman of bowling?

    There are plenty of bowlers in the same ball park as him

    Secondly what do you have to say about Warne's not so impressive performance against India, who are comfortably the best players of spin? Surely record against the best team of the era counts and in this regard Warne does have a hole in his record?

  13. #43
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Was critisized for that already, but all I am saying that he is clear cut the best for me, not by the margin that Bradman is, but in the same way that Bradman is the best middle order bat and Hobbs the best opener, to me Warne is the best spinner, Marshall the best quick and Gillchrist the best wk/batsman. To me they are the clear cut best of their diciplines.
    Edit: Cant forget Sobers the best All-Rounder.
    Last edited by kyear2; 27-06-2012 at 05:15 AM.

  14. #44
    International Debutant harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Gary Sobers: Greatest All Rounder
    Shane Warne: Greatest Spinner

    Smalis ears are turning red.

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    haha.....not really.....

    FTR I do love Warne but his record does have a gaping hole too.

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