Son Of Coco
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
It really depends on which noun you put after 'All Time Great".
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Does Virender Sehwag deserve to be called an ALL TIME GREAT?
- Thread starter HeavyBall
- Start date
Daemon
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And yet he's opening in your 3rd Test AT XI..
tooextracool
International Coach
Think Sehwag suffers from the Hayden effect to some extent. Both are a product of their generation - playing on tracks with not a lot of assistance for seam and swing but playing against quality spin bowling. My feeling is that both Sehwag and Hayden's technique changed over time to suit the nature of the era they were involved in. I'd be interested in re-watching videos of his debut test 100 in SA or his knock at TB in 2002. I suspect his technique and the way he constructed his innings was vastly different than what it is today.
For one thing, I respect Hayden vastly because towards the end of his career he put in a lot of effort towards ironing out his technical flaws and restoring some order in his game. In that regard he perhaps managed to resurrect his image as a great, or near great, opener before he retired. Whether Sehwag can do the same before he retires remains to be seen, but from evidence of the way Sehwag has played in this series, one gets the feeling he just doesn't care. At least not as much as Hayden did.
For one thing, I respect Hayden vastly because towards the end of his career he put in a lot of effort towards ironing out his technical flaws and restoring some order in his game. In that regard he perhaps managed to resurrect his image as a great, or near great, opener before he retired. Whether Sehwag can do the same before he retires remains to be seen, but from evidence of the way Sehwag has played in this series, one gets the feeling he just doesn't care. At least not as much as Hayden did.
Shri
Mr. Glass
He just modeled his game to maximize his output on conditions that he played the majority of his games. Should have been handled like Samaraweera imo. Should have only played in SC tests(or as a middle order bat in overseas tests). Wasim Jaffer should have been our regular overseas test opener.
smash84
The Tiger King
Arachnodouche
International Captain
Why is there so much love for Sangakkara? The guy averages 35 and below in England, SA, and India. Surely those are grounds to dismiss his claims to ATG-ness?
robelinda
International Vice-Captain
Sachin Tendulkar 155 Virender Sehwag 105 SA 2001 PART ONE - YouTube
Sachin Tendulkar 155 Virender Sehwag 105 vs SA 2001 PART TWO - YouTube
BCCI shut down my video of the innings at TB. Bastards.
Yeah, double standards really annoy me... the stats dont lie... Sanga has been poor in swinging conditions too, and Sehwag's stats are really no worse than Sanga's in SA and England. If Sehwag's an FTB, Sanga is too.
kyear2
Cricketer Of The Year
Work in progress and the opener position is a weak one in the grand scheme of things. Greenidge or Arthur Morris are both in contention to take his place, more reseach still required. Sehwags record is very impressive, its just out side of the sub continent or on pitches with even a hint of life he is just too ordinary, In the s/c though he is a ATG, he just hast proven he can handle all conditions well. Great player yes, FTB, sadly also yes, true ATG, no.
tooextracool
International Coach
Thanks a lot mate! Those are great.
I think those clips actually re-confirm what I'd long thought about Sehwag. Footwork-wise he's never been a tap dancer, but you'd still be forgiven for thinking that the Sehwag from that innings was a completely different player from the one from today. Every shot was played along the ground. Whats really astonishing though is the straightness with which he brings his bat down in that innings.
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
It seems the reason I don't rate him as an ATG is a fair bit different to the reasons of the others who have said no.
I'm actually finding myself in a very frustrating position where I disagree with the points both sides of the debate are making; it's quite annoying. Frankly I don't care how quickly or otherwise he scores he runs so he gets no bonus points from me for that, but I also don't care too much about his home/away breakdown. If he makes up being poor in alien conditions by being godly at home well then good luck to him. I just don't think he's really done it for long enough yet. There are others of similar length careers whom I rate all-time greats but those players were absolutely ridiculous in their run scoring whereas Sehwag merely matches a whole heap of other greats over a shorter time.
Ask me again when he retires - if he keeps going the way he has (even including failing in England/South Africa) over a longer period then that'll do me as far as ATG status goes. Not yet, though. The bloke has consistently scored ****loads of runs over a meaningful but not all-time great length of time.
I'm actually finding myself in a very frustrating position where I disagree with the points both sides of the debate are making; it's quite annoying. Frankly I don't care how quickly or otherwise he scores he runs so he gets no bonus points from me for that, but I also don't care too much about his home/away breakdown. If he makes up being poor in alien conditions by being godly at home well then good luck to him. I just don't think he's really done it for long enough yet. There are others of similar length careers whom I rate all-time greats but those players were absolutely ridiculous in their run scoring whereas Sehwag merely matches a whole heap of other greats over a shorter time.
Ask me again when he retires - if he keeps going the way he has (even including failing in England/South Africa) over a longer period then that'll do me as far as ATG status goes. Not yet, though. The bloke has consistently scored ****loads of runs over a meaningful but not all-time great length of time.
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Ruckus
International Captain
How can you not properly take into account his home/away record? I'm sorry but that's just ridiculous. Like basically any other sport, cricket is about mastering the different skills and conditions out there. If Nadal got 20 GS's all on clay, and none on the other surfaces, there would be no way in hell he'd be considered the best of all time. It isn't just about racking up numbers which, overall, look as good as anyone else...it's about how well a batsman has been able to adapt his game to all of the myriad conditions out there.
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Spark
Global Moderator
Rated that highly here*. It pains me to say it because I love the bloke to bits as does any reasonable human being but he is undeniably overrated in the general public. Mostly because he scores most of his runs at home.
(And Damien Martyn is probably underrated for a similar reason)
EDIT: Ah, this post is about Hussey ftr, but Ruckus seems to have edited his post to remove the Hussey reference...
(And Damien Martyn is probably underrated for a similar reason)
EDIT: Ah, this post is about Hussey ftr, but Ruckus seems to have edited his post to remove the Hussey reference...
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Prince EWS
Global Moderator
I don't give a **** about tennis, ****.
And as I've told you before - to me being a good cricketer isn't about achieving a magical skill level or checking imaginary boxes and standards that judges hold you to; it's about being the biggest asset to your cricket side (or, to remove balance issues, a cross-section of theoretical cricket sides) that you possibly can. You're going to play half your games at home so if you want to make up for being a little poorer away by being even extra godly at home then more power to you, IMO. I appreciate people will disagree because they love breaking down career samples that are already dubious in size in terms of forming an accurate judgement into even smaller samples heavily prone to cyclical form factors, development rates and plain old variance, but there you have it. Home and away records need to be taken into account if someone has played an disproportionate amount of games either at home or away - for example playing 75% of your games at home will usually inflate one's record as playing at home is easier - but beyond that, meh. In the end, only about one every eighteen series or so a modern batsman plays is going to be in South Africa, unless they play for South Africa. It's not as important to a side as it's made out.
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Ruckus
International Captain
ah sorry, just thought it was a bit redundant. I agree with you though.
Yeah I can't agree Prince_EWS. Far too much of a constrained view on the issue for my liking...
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Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
Haha, I agree. I think he is very special, and definitely an all-time great.
It's simply the way that he bats relies a lot on his eye and form. He's about as likely to score a double ton as he is to get 10.
kiwiviktor81
International Debutant
I think that there are a couple of different ways of defining ATG.
One is someone who would make, or come close to making, an AT XI. While I think it's a stretch to say that Sehwag is one of the best two openers in history, I'd have him in my squad in a theoretical tour just in case the match conditions suited him, because if they did he could wrestle the initiative off anyone.
The second way is if the player has achieved a level of skill/dominance in some area, whatever that be, that no-one else ever has. I was watching the odds offered for an Indian win in the last Test and they were down to $8 when Sehwag brought up his 50 and blew out to $40 odd when he got out. I don't think the dismissal of any other player would have such an impact on the odds, because only Sehwag could win a match chasing 500 in just over a day (not to say that he has done that, but the bookies recognise that he's the only player that could).
I don't think that any other player has shown the potential for danger that Sehwag has, even if he has not been as effective in his career as the "top tier" of batsmen. For these reasons I'd class him as an ATG, for sure.
One is someone who would make, or come close to making, an AT XI. While I think it's a stretch to say that Sehwag is one of the best two openers in history, I'd have him in my squad in a theoretical tour just in case the match conditions suited him, because if they did he could wrestle the initiative off anyone.
The second way is if the player has achieved a level of skill/dominance in some area, whatever that be, that no-one else ever has. I was watching the odds offered for an Indian win in the last Test and they were down to $8 when Sehwag brought up his 50 and blew out to $40 odd when he got out. I don't think the dismissal of any other player would have such an impact on the odds, because only Sehwag could win a match chasing 500 in just over a day (not to say that he has done that, but the bookies recognise that he's the only player that could).
I don't think that any other player has shown the potential for danger that Sehwag has, even if he has not been as effective in his career as the "top tier" of batsmen. For these reasons I'd class him as an ATG, for sure.
Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
I think I come under the above. Simply put, when he is scoring runs Sehwag is the best batsman - possibly barring Bradman - to have in your side. I know, that sentence can be picked to bits, but I hope in the context of the above it can be appreciated.
Black_Warrior
Cricketer Of The Year
You can be a great with technical weaknesses.
Sehwag has no footwork whatsoever and has no idea how to play the moving ball. Now this technical weakness will only be a problem when the opposition actually exploits it. When the opposition is unable to exploit it, he will blast you for 290 runs in 1 day and bat like the greatest of them all, when they exploit it, he will look like one of the most average players in the world.