Is Dale Steyn the worst ever best fast bowler in the world?

[Richard]

Originally Posted by GuyFromLancs

Yeah but anything beats horse racing to be fair.

It does - that's the only point I was making.

BTW I could've also said painting the woodwork and sorting through your Clubcard statements.

Collingwood has over 100 wickets, Tendulka has over 150, Jaysuirya who despite his accuracy was never an all-rounder in tests has over 300. It kind of devalues it all a bit.

Numbers of wickets are fairly irrelevant; those are a consequence of having played lots of games rather than having actually bowled well. The career figures of the likes of Collingwood and Tendulkar are very poor indeed; Jayasuriya is essentially an all-rounder in ODIs in that he's always been perfectly capable of bowling 10 overs when needed. He played the first 5-6 years of his ODI career as a bowling-all-rounder, indeed.

I always though ODIs and the style he adopted fo them distracted him from being a world class test bowler. IMO

Saqlain? Nah, was never going to be a World-class Test bowler IMO, he's a fingerspinner, and fingerspinners just cannot be that any more because fingerspinners need favourable conditions to be effective and such conditions are not widespread enough any more for fingerspinners to achieve sustained success.

Harbhajan likewise.

[Black_Warrior]

^ Thats interesting. He did have a decent test record though...I think he was averaging in the last 20s..and did manage to come up with 5-6 wicket haults against Australia, England overseas, did manage to bowl brilliantly against India, the one team both Warne and Murali failed against.

I think what led to Saqlain's downfall was burnout caused from playing too much county cricket in England. There was a time around 2000-01, when he picked county cricket over national duties. I think that upset PCB, team management and he was not given a fair chance to come back as they quickly looked to Kaneria to fill the spot.

[thierry henry]

Originally Posted by Black_Warrior

^ Thats interesting. He did have a decent test record though...I think he was averaging in the last 20s..and did manage to come up with 5-6 wicket haults against Australia, England overseas, did manage to bowl brilliantly against India, the one team both Warne and Murali failed against.

I think what led to Saqlain's downfall was burnout caused from playing too much county cricket in England. There was a time around 2000-01, when he picked county cricket over national duties. I think that upset PCB, team management and he was not given a fair chance to come back as they quickly looked to Kaneria to fill the spot.

Said it before and I'll say it again and again (was actually perusing his record just the other day, searching for some clue of his apparent downfall) but Saqlain never really had a "downfall". I mean, his downfall was basically from most effective ODI spinner ever to good ODI spinner (for about 20-odd games), while his test downfall was, ermmmm, one game.

[Son Of Coco]

Just saw Steyn's spell in the first innings against India on YouTube, it was a good 'un!

Jagging the ball back in makes him a hell of a lot more dangerous (says Captain Obvious).

[GuyFromLancs]

Saqlain? Nah, was never going to be a World-class Test bowler IMO, he's a fingerspinner, and fingerspinners just cannot be that any more because fingerspinners need favourable conditions to be effective and such conditions are not widespread enough any more for fingerspinners to achieve sustained success.

I don't have a massive belief in finger-spinners myself, I am actually waiting with dread for Swann to be found out and his honeymoon to be over, but I don't like to write off an entire bowling style in one swoop either.

Singh is a very good bowler, he may take 450 wickets. I hope he does.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Black_Warrior

^ Thats interesting. He did have a decent test record though...I think he was averaging in the last 20s..and did manage to come up with 5-6 wicket haults against Australia, England overseas, did manage to bowl brilliantly against India, the one team both Warne and Murali failed against.

Saqlain never bowled well in England (played a whole 1 Test here in fact) and I don't have any memory of how he bowled in Australia in 1999/2000 either. Saqlain was indeed a decent Test bowler - on a turning wicket (even a very slow one) he was always a substantial handful. But on a good batting or seaming deck like any fingerspinner top-class batsmen would have no difficulty with him.

When Pakistan produced turners to suit him, and when he went to India and Sri Lanka, Saqlain was undoubtedly a top-notch bowler. But when Pakistan produced flatties\seamers, and when he toured to the likes of New Zealand, England, South Africa, Australia, he offered no penetration against good batsmen.

I think what led to Saqlain's downfall was burnout caused from playing too much county cricket in England. There was a time around 2000-01, when he picked county cricket over national duties. I think that upset PCB, team management and he was not given a fair chance to come back as they quickly looked to Kaneria to fill the spot.

Don't recall any such instance. Saqlain never played a full season for Surrey and missed large chunks of 1999, 2000 and 2001 due to Pakistan commitments. Kaneria and Saqlain played alongside one-another for several years and Saqlain was then invalided out of the side, and after taking about 2 years to recover from that injury he has never been remotely the same bowler again, and has then decided to prioritise county cricket (and the ICL) to cricket in Pakistan.

Can't honestly say I blame him either. For all county cricket's inadequacies, it's borderline royalty compared to domestic cricket in Pakistan.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by GuyFromLancs

I don't have a massive belief in finger-spinners myself, I am actually waiting with dread for Swann to be found out and his honeymoon to be over, but I don't like to write off an entire bowling style in one swoop either.

Oh I certainly don't like to write-off entire bowling styles in one swoop, and don't presume to do anything of the sort here. I'm merely saying that fingerspinners have irrevocable limitations, which manifest themselves far more in modern times than they used to. There's a difference between writing fingerspinners off (ie, saying "they're all no-hopers") and saying they're limited to being lesser than other styles of bowlers of equal calibre (ie, seamers).

Seamers have far more control over their own destiny than fingerspinners do. Wristspinners, meanwhile, tend to be either crap (>99%) or brilliant (<1%), so I don't tend to count them in the general scheme of things.

Singh is a very good bowler, he may take 450 wickets. I hope he does.

He's a very good fingerspinner; on a turning deck he's a massive threat, but the relatively rare nature of such decks means that in the grand scheme he's nothing more than a decent bowler. Saqlain was likewise.

[Manee]

Been off CW for a few days, but have to chirp in and note that Steyn's spell was pretty special. It pained me to see India go down like that, but tbph, we were lacking two of our top batsmen, who would have improved the situation, no doubt, that we ended up in. I do hope that Badri's knock was enough to keep him in the side, but tbf, he has had his opportunity and did not make the most of it. He looked good for his fifty, but the pitch was flat enough to him to carve out a hundred - you cannot expect him to score a hundred on any given day, mind, and I do accept that.

However, Steyn can only bowl over what is in front of him, and he did it with ease. Why I think Steyn is so effective, is that he gets an angled seam when the extreme pace is not there, allowing him to swing the new ball big, conventionally swing the medium aged ball late (stuff which I have seen him use to almost look like mocking middle and lower order batsmen) and reverse swing the old ball (my theory is that a highly angled seam or a pinpoint straight one is what is required for reverse swing).

[Black_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Richard

Saqlain never bowled well in England (played a whole 1 Test here in fact) and I don't have any memory of how he bowled in Australia in 1999/2000 either. Saqlain was indeed a decent Test bowler - on a turning wicket (even a very slow one) he was always a substantial handful. But on a good batting or seaming deck like any fingerspinner top-class batsmen would have no difficulty with him.

When Pakistan produced turners to suit him, and when he went to India and Sri Lanka, Saqlain was undoubtedly a top-notch bowler. But when Pakistan produced flatties\seamers, and when he toured to the likes of New Zealand, England, South Africa, Australia, he offered no penetration against good batsmen.

Not true. Saqlain won Pakistan a test in England. Even if you dont consider 4 wicket haul as a big deal, its still safe to conclude that he did offer penetration with a match haul of 7 wickets.

As for Australia, if Pakistan had won this test match, Saqlain would have been MOM and it would be considered as a match Saqlain won for Pakistan in Australia. That is something even Murali or Harbhajan have failed to do in Australia. Pakistan in all likelihood would have won that match had the UDRS been in place or had there been a different umpire instead of Peter Parkar.

Don't recall any such instance. Saqlain never played a full season for Surrey and missed large chunks of 1999, 2000 and 2001 due to Pakistan commitments. Kaneria and Saqlain played alongside one-another for several years and Saqlain was then invalided out of the side, and after taking about 2 years to recover from that injury he has never been remotely the same bowler again, and has then decided to prioritise county cricket (and the ICL) to cricket in Pakistan.

Can't honestly say I blame him either. For all county cricket's inadequacies, it's borderline royalty compared to domestic cricket in Pakistan.

[/quote]

In 2000, Saqlain skipped a lot of international tours to play in England. He skipped the Sharjah triseries involving India and South Africa, Asia Cup, tour of Sri Lanka that year.
Pakistan played Arshad Khan to replace him. I dont know whether he ended up playing full season or not..as I was not following county season but I do know that he picked County cricket over international duties.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Black_Warrior

Not true. Saqlain won Pakistan a test in England. Even if you dont consider 4 wicket haul as a big deal, its still safe to conclude that he did offer penetration with a match haul of 7 wickets.

I watched just about every over of that Test and there's no way Saqlain bowled penetratively well. He troubled the tailenders, but the only top-order batsman he dismissed with a good delivery was Ian Ward; Alec Stewart rather inexplicably just padded-up to a straight ball. His match figures of 6-154 look impressive but when 4 of those 6 wickets are tailenders, I think not.

As for Australia, if Pakistan had won this test match, Saqlain would have been MOM and it would be considered as a match Saqlain won for Pakistan in Australia. That is something even Murali or Harbhajan have failed to do in Australia. Pakistan in all likelihood would have won that match had the UDRS been in place or had there been a different umpire instead of Peter Parkar.

Well I can't say I either watched that Test nor have read extensively about it TBH, so I can't really say much about that.

In 2000, Saqlain skipped a lot of international tours to play in England. He skipped the Sharjah triseries involving India and South Africa, Asia Cup, tour of Sri Lanka that year.
Pakistan played Arshad Khan to replace him. I dont know whether he ended up playing full season or not..as I was not following county season but I do know that he picked County cricket over international duties.

I see. Well as I say, he certainly never played a full county season in his initial stint at Surrey because Pakistan always had some commitments during all of his seasons. I don't, however, think someone is doing very much wrong by skipping yet another ODI triangular to commit themselves to a county. And it was only one serious competition, the Asia Cup, that he skipped BTW - the triangular in Sharjah you speak of finished on the 31st of March, at least a couple of weeks before the start of the county season, and Saqlain subsequently missed the start of the county season to tour West Indies. He subsequently missed the tour of Sri Lanka and the rather pointless Godrej Singapore Challenge in order to finish the 2000 season.

[Winsome]

I don't think that he is the best bowler at present.
I know he is very good bowler but Stuart Broad is better that Styen. Even Umar Gul is better than Dale Styen. Styen is pretty good in tests but so boring in T20s.

[Spark]

I don't know whether to laugh or just raise my eyebrows.

[Daemon]

Yeah, he's got nothing on Ishant Sharma either

[smalishah84]

Originally Posted by Spark

I don't know whether to laugh or just raise my eyebrows.

just laugh and enjoy the comment

[8ankitj]

Ashok Dinda ftw. Took 3 wickets in a maiden over in the last t20 he played.