View Poll Results: On the subject of Malcolm Marshall, do you consider ...

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  • ... he was EITHER the best bowler of all-time OR the second-best after SF Barnes

    25 41.67%
  • ... someone other than SF Barnes was better than him

    33 55.00%
  • I have no real interest in cricket history so I don't have much of an opinion on him

    2 3.33%
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Thread: Do you consider Malcolm Marshall...

  1. #16
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredfertang View Post
    History treats Barnes surprisingly kindly in my view. That he was a very good bowler can’t be doubted but he did get nearly half of his test wickets at less than 10 apiece (and had it not been for Herby Taylor that average would have been considerably less) against a South African side that great grandpa Dickinson would have treated with the same disdain as the current generation treats Bangladesh.

    His wickets against Australia (and arguably he missed the series involving the strongest Australian sides of his era) and Yorkshire (who he only bowled against 4 times in championship cricket) cost about 22 and 26 each so rather different

    As for Maco he was undoubtedly a great – a shorter man with a magnificent action, terrific pace and a lethal breakback – a latter day Harold Larwood – but not quite as good
    I think we had a big debate about this before and I was one of those asking these questions of his record, with respect to South Africa. But even when you try to normalise those stats, he is still well within the best bowlers of all time - in the class of McGrath, Hadlee, etc.

    As for Marshall, I consider him one of the very best of all time and have a hard time people rating him outside the top 5 of all-time. Not the greatest bowler or fast bowler of all-time IMO, but certainly in that category and with more than enough accolades to BE the best of all time.
    Last edited by Ikki; 29-11-2008 at 02:39 AM.
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  2. #17
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    He comes in the top three fast bowlers with Lillee and Trueman. You need to have seen him side on from inside the ground to realise how frighteningly quick he was. He could also swing it both ways and had the best bouncer ever which almost lacked bounce but flew past the batsmans nose at high speed. Interestingly when he was selected for the 1979 West Indies World Cup Squad Fred Trueman was openly sceptical about his inclusion as he considered his action wasn't side on. Fred was always going on about cricket being a side on game and on one occasion someone wrote him a letter saying they'd tried wicketkeeping side on but had failed miserably. It was obviously a joke but didn't raise so much as a titter from Fred.

  3. #18
    Englishman BoyBrumby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillian Thomson View Post
    He comes in the top three fast bowlers with Lillee and Trueman. You need to have seen him side on from inside the ground to realise how frighteningly quick he was. He could also swing it both ways and had the best bouncer ever which almost lacked bounce but flew past the batsmans nose at high speed. Interestingly when he was selected for the 1979 West Indies World Cup Squad Fred Trueman was openly sceptical about his inclusion as he considered his action wasn't side on. Fred was always going on about cricket being a side on game and on one occasion someone wrote him a letter saying they'd tried wicketkeeping side on but had failed miserably. It was obviously a joke but didn't raise so much as a titter from Fred.


    Am stealing that anecdote for use in a pub at a later date.

    WRT Marshall, he was obviously an all-time great and an absolutely tragic loss at such an early age () but I personally rate Curtly slightly higher. I probably saw more of Ambrose at his peak so am possibly biased towards him because of that, but when in the zone he was an absolute machine. Metronomic, quick & not adverse to putting the fear of God into batsmen either.
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  4. #19
    Global Moderator nightprowler10's Avatar
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    I do consider him the best of all time based solely on what I've read about him.
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  5. #20
    International 12th Man Rant0r's Avatar
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    at one stage in the 90's i think ambrose was the bowler batsmen least wanted to face, mark taylor described him as putting more balls in the sport you didn't want to be playing them than any other.

    he had hardly any mongrel in him, until dean jones asked him to take off his sweatbands, he didn't calm down for 6 months, during which time i seen some of the best fast bowling of that era.

    wasim akram is probably also in that category of not wanting to face as well, but i still rate marshall about the same if not higher.

  6. #21
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredfertang View Post
    History treats Barnes surprisingly kindly in my view. That he was a very good bowler canít be doubted but he did get nearly half of his test wickets at less than 10 apiece (and had it not been for Herby Taylor that average would have been considerably less) against a South African side that great grandpa Dickinson would have treated with the same disdain as the current generation treats Bangladesh.
    I don't know about that. Up to the series against Australia in 1902/03, for sure. But from the time they beat England (admittedly not a truly representative best-XI of England, but certainly not a team that disgraced the name of Test cricket) in 1905/06 and acquired the famed wristspin trio of Schwarz, Vogler and Faulkner SA were more comparable to the WI teams of the last 6-7 years than Bangladesh or, more recently still, Zimbabwe.

    BTW, it'd be great-great-grandad who'd have been the one judging the SA teams of the late-19th early-20th centuries. Great-grandad's time of starting to watch the game was more the 1920s - not sure he had much notable memory of pre-WW1 cricket. Not that the two of us ever spoke much about it as I was only 13 (and not quite yet so into the game as I have been since the summer of '98) when he left us.
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  7. #22
    Cricket Web Staff Member fredfertang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    I don't know about that. Up to the series against Australia in 1902/03, for sure. But from the time they beat England (admittedly not a truly representative best-XI of England, but certainly not a team that disgraced the name of Test cricket) in 1905/06 and acquired the famed wristspin trio of Schwarz, Vogler and Faulkner SA were more comparable to the WI teams of the last 6-7 years than Bangladesh or, more recently still, Zimbabwe.

    BTW, it'd be great-great-grandad who'd have been the one judging the SA teams of the late-19th early-20th centuries. Great-grandad's time of starting to watch the game was more the 1920s - not sure he had much notable memory of pre-WW1 cricket. Not that the two of us ever spoke much about it as I was only 13 (and not quite yet so into the game as I have been since the summer of '98) when he left us.
    Agreed they performed very well in 05/06 but they were woeful in the triangular series in 1912 and at home in 13/14, the only times Barnes faced them

  8. #23
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Sides don't really go from substandard to up-to-standard and back again in my book though, else Bangladesh would already have done that a few times. And everything England did between 1986 and 1989 would be demoted from Test cricket as well.

    South Africa still had some terrible series' after 1905/06 (some in recent times) but I've always tended to count them as worthy of Test status from that series onwards and never for anything before that.

    Similar with New Zealand as of 1960/61.

  9. #24
    Cricket Web Staff Member fredfertang's Avatar
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    I don't really disagree with you Richard - I'm just a little surprised that Barnes reputation has endured down the years in a way that some others, particularly George Lohmann, whose tests were all against Australia, haven't

  10. #25
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Im not sure it is possible to rank players (apart from Bradman) with any certainty.

    Marshall is certainly up there though.
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  11. #26
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Sides don't really go from substandard to up-to-standard and back again in my book though

  12. #27
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Banally posting 3 Laugh smilies rarely got anyone anywhere. In fact posts purely composed of such a thing, in reply to posts that aren't funny, is best described as spamming the forum.

  13. #28
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredfertang View Post
    I don't really disagree with you Richard - I'm just a little surprised that Barnes reputation has endured down the years in a way that some others, particularly George Lohmann, whose tests were all against Australia, haven't
    I don't know about anyone else, but Barnes and Lohmann are treated by me totally differently because of the fact that Barnes was a 20th-century player and Lohmann a 19th-century one.

    That Lohmann was the best bowler of the 19th-century is, to me, highly likely. That he was one of them is beyond question. However, I've always been happiest to draw a line at 1899 (the turn of the century is the most convenient place, though obviously some of the changes which form the reason for the desire for the line-drawing were gradual) and say that anything then and before is something I'm only keen to compare with itself, and likewise from 1900 onwards.

    Any player from 1899 backwards I'm happy only comparing with other players from 1899 backwards.

  14. #29
    International Coach social's Avatar
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    Hmmm,

    a. A professional athlete, documented on film and anywhere else you care to name, bowling at 95 mph and swinging the ball both ways

    b. A guy no-one in living memory saw or documented and of whom so little is known that people like Bradman refer to him as a "leg-spinner without a wrong-un" whilst others claim was a pace bowler

    Tough one

  15. #30
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    You seem to have misread. Nowhere is anyone suggesting to compare Marshall and Barnes. In fact, quite the opposite. To compare Marshall with everyone but Barnes!!!!!!!!!!

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