mendis and murali

[Top_Cat]

True, but for a long while Kumble had a tough time reaping the success that he had in his early years. The medium pace business, believe it or not, worked successfully as batsman started to realize that he didnt turn the ball much and Kumble's 'rocket ball', the one that skidded on much like Mendis' 'carrom ball' went from being lethal to unthreatening. Kumble has obviously undergone various transformations since his earlier years, that is fairly obvious if you watched him earlier in his career as I did and he flights the ball far more and varies his pace more than he ever did earlier on when he bowled quicker and flatter. He also added a googly later on in his career, that has given him some serious success, largely because it turns more than his stock delivery.
The similarity between Mendis and Kumble is uncanny, although Mendis is far harder to pick and has many more variations. He too bowls flat and quick and doesnt give the ball much air. It works well for him now, but I am sure like Kumble he will have to make various adjustments in the future to maintain his success. However, lets be fair, Kumble has always been ordinary away from home.

His record in Australia is pretty good these days, though.

What makes you think Mendis won't change too? Every bowler has to eventually. Mendis is reaping the benefits of his mystery right now, yes. As soon as batsmen stop under-estimating him and taking him seriously, I'm sure that'll change. That'll be his real test and it'll happen multiple times in a long career. Warne barely resembled the bowler in 2007 that he was in the early 90's.

Not directed at you but I just find the whole "Oh, he'll be in trouble once batsmen figure him out." a really pointless comment to make. Every bowler gets 'figured out', even Murali. It's how they react to that which shows how good they really are so it remains to be seen what Mendis has up his sleeve.

However, that said, he already has a few things which every good/great/all-time great/world-class bowler has that will give him the best chance of doing well over a long period;

1) He bowls very accurately and has a consistent action
2) He has subtle variation as well as the more exaggerated ones
3) He steps up for the big occasion
4) Has already done well on pitches unfriendly to his style of bowling
5) Doesn't get flustered by a bloke going after him like Sehwag did

Put all that together and you have a bloke who has a heck of a lot of potential. Whether he realises that potential, we'll see.

 

[Top_Cat]

Personally, Ive always thought that a player who could make it into almost every side in the world is world class. How many sides would not currently take Kumble? Arguably only SL would not at this point so IMO he is world class.

AWTA. Kumble is criminally under-rated by everyone who doesn't actually play against him.

 

[tooextracool]

His record in Australia is pretty good these days, though.

What makes you think Mendis won't change too? Every bowler has to eventually. Mendis is reaping the benefits of his mystery right now, yes. As soon as batsmen stop under-estimating him and taking him seriously, I'm sure that'll change. That'll be his real test and it'll happen multiple times in a long career. Warne barely resembled the bowler in 2007 that he was in the early 90's.

Not directed at you but I just find the whole "Oh, he'll be in trouble once batsmen figure him out." a really pointless comment to make. Every bowler gets 'figured out', even Murali. It's how they react to that which shows how good they really are so it remains to be seen what Mendis has up his sleeve.

However, that said, he already has a few things which every good/great/all-time great/world-class bowler has that will give him the best chance of doing well over a long period;

1) He bowls very accurately and has a consistent action
2) He has subtle variation as well as the more exaggerated ones
3) He steps up for the big occasion
4) Has already done well on pitches unfriendly to his style of bowling
5) Doesn't get flustered by a bloke going after him like Sehwag did

Put all that together and you have a bloke who has a heck of a lot of potential. Whether he realises that potential, we'll see.

The thing is his whole bowling style is such that it maximises this very mystery. All his wickets seem to come from the batsman's inability to pick him. Its not like hes beating people in the air or off the pitch in the manner that Warne and Murali did. He bowls flat, fast and wicket to wicket and essentially if you cant pick him you have very little hope. There are a few things outside of his propensity to deceive that are troubling batters at the moment and whilst, as I mentioned, his ability to use aspects such as swing and seam are useful components, he would probably require a major overhaul in the way in which he delivers the ball which may or may not lead to long term success.

However, at the moment, I would like to see how he goes when batters start to play him like a medium pacer instead of a spinner and if he still succeeds fair enough. But the facts in thus far are that hes troubled all the Indian tailenders along with Dravid and Laxman who are arguably Indias worst players of spin anyways. Hes yet to dismiss Tendulkar or Sehwag this series so its still premature for people to be starting this kind of thread.

 

[tooextracool]

1) He bowls very accurately and has a consistent action

His accuracy is extremely impressive, perhaps whats most impressive about him. His ability land the ball in the right locations despite having a dozen deliveries with different actions is laudable to say the least.

 

[Top_Cat]

His accuracy is extremely impressive, perhaps whats most impressive about him. His ability land the ball in the right locations despite having a dozen deliveries with different actions is laudable to say the least.

Actually yeah, when I think about it, that's probably what I like most too. To beat batsmen on the defensive stroke and get the number of clean-bowleds he's been getting, even with the mystery aspect, has been pretty good.

 

[Migara]

JThe point is, the best spinners in the world during Kumble's career, Murali and Warne, were an indisputable class above him. Calling him world-class would imply that he's in the same class as those two, and he's not.

It's a pity that he played in the era of Murali and Warne. Any other time in the history he would have been the leading spinner in the world with exception of Grimmet/O'Riely. He is much better than any of the other spinners except above four.

 

[Uppercut]

It's a pity that he played in the era of Murali and Warne. Any other time in the history he would have been the leading spinner in the world with exception of Grimmet/O'Riely. He is much better than any of the other spinners except above four.

Hmm. He's a little reliant on conditions for me. On a flat deck he's not even as good as someone like Vettori. What about Prassana or Bedi, surely you can't rank Kumble as "much better than" either of them?

 

[The Sean]

Perhaps, but right now you could call Lee world-class because he's obviously in the top tier of fast bowlers in the world. At no point in his career could you say that about Kumble, because there were always at least two spinners undeniably better than him.

Being in the top tier (as Kumble has been for a decade and a half) doesn't always mean you're the very best. The fact that he's been only the second or third best spinner in the world for a lot of that time doesn't mean he's not world class. By that logic, you could argue that neither Hammond or Headley were world class because both men had at least one batsman clearly better than them for most of their careers.

Basically, if Kumble was eligible for an Australian passport I'd swim to India with the paperwork for him to fill out. A wonderful, durable cricketer.

 

[Migara]

Hmm. He's a little reliant on conditions for me. On a flat deck he's not even as good as someone like Vettori. What about Prassana or Bedi, surely you can't rank Kumble as "much better than" either of them?

Indian spinners away from home Excluding BAN and ZIM.

Here you see Bedi, Chandra, Prasanna all has lower averages than Kumble, but has higher strrike rate than him. So they are even IMO. Subash Gupte is the phenomenal performer there.

 

[BoyBrumby]

One things for sure, Mendis will take a ****load of wickets next time SL play England

Nah, he'll probably be playing in the IPL, tbh.

 

[Uppercut]

Indian spinners away from home Excluding BAN and ZIM.

Here you see Bedi, Chandra, Prasanna all has lower averages than Kumble, but has higher strrike rate than him. So they are even IMO. Subash Gupte is the phenomenal performer there.

Yeah i'd go along with that. Kumble is the latest in a long line of excellent Indian spinners that it's difficult to choose between (although none are/were quite as good as those you listed). I was only objecting to your comment:

"He is much better than any of the other spinners except above four."

 

[Uppercut]

Being in the top tier (as Kumble has been for a decade and a half) doesn't always mean you're the very best. The fact that he's been only the second or third best spinner in the world for a lot of that time doesn't mean he's not world class. By that logic, you could argue that neither Hammond or Headley were world class because both men had at least one batsman clearly better than them for most of their careers.

Well, he wasn't in the top tier, because there was a tier above him containing two undeniably better players. To carry on your metaphor, i'm not trying to say that Kumble's tier isn't extremely high- it is. But there's a tier that's even higher than that. I can't comment on Hammond or Headley, they played a long time before i was born, but no, you're not world class if you're a clear tier below some of your peers.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Yeah he is not World Class. 600+ and counting and he is not world class.

No, nowhere near the level of Warne or Murali IMO. Not checked in a while, but his record outside of the subcontinent is laughable for someone who is supposedly "world class".

Not denying he's a very good bowler indeed.

 

[Precambrian]

Hmm.. whatever be the debate... Mendis has definitely outshone the wily Murali in every department in the current series so far. That takes some doing man!

Player  	Mat  	Inns  	Overs  	Mdns  	Runs  	Wkts  	BBI  	BBM  	Ave Econ  	SR  	5  	10  	Ct  	St

BAW Mendis  	3*  	5  	121.1  	16  	378  	[B]22[/B]  	6/117  	10/209  [B]17.18[/B]  	3.11  	33.0  	1  	1  	1  	0

M Murali    	3*  	5  	117.0  	12  	352  	[B]18[/B]  	6/26  	11/110  [B]19.55[/B]  	3.00  	39.0  	2  	1  	1  	0

 

[Migara]

Good news isn't it? But will not be that good news for other teams. When Malinga returns to this bowling lineup, it will be quite a handful to counter.

 

[Dissector]

I strongly disagree that Warne was a clear tier better than Kumble. IMO the gap between Murali and Warne is a lot bigger than the gap between Warne and Kumble. Kumble is one of those bowlers whose value isn't well represented through his career average. One thing that is important to note is that the support he received from his fielders, particularly in run-saving positions was generally poor especially compared to the support Warne got. That alone would easily account for 3-4 runs in terms of bowling average. In the post-Mongia era Kumble has generally had mediocre keepers as well. Finally for much of his career the Indian batting was quite poor in overseas games which meant relatively little pressure on the batting when Kumble bowled. That alone accounts for a fair bit of his relatively poor performance abroad especially early in his career. Taking all this into consideration I think Kumble is only slightly below the level of Warne , both of whom are a fair distance below Murali.

 

[Napier16]

I strongly disagree that Warne was a clear tier better than Kumble. IMO the gap between Murali and Warne is a lot bigger than the gap between Warne and Kumble. Kumble is one of those bowlers whose value isn't well represented through his career average. One thing that is important to note is that the support he received from his fielders, particularly in run-saving positions was generally poor especially compared to the support Warne got. That alone would easily account for 3-4 runs in terms of bowling average. In the post-Mongia era Kumble has generally had mediocre keepers as well. Finally for much of his career the Indian batting was quite poor in overseas games which meant relatively little pressure on the batting when Kumble bowled. That alone accounts for a fair bit of his relatively poor performance abroad especially early in his career. Taking all this into consideration I think Kumble is only slightly below the level of Warne , both of whom are a fair distance below Murali.

Absolute rubbish.

Oh, you're an Indian. Shocking. If only Kumble was able to apply as much spin as you.

You're in a minority of one. If only all the ex pro's, pundits, experts, commentators, current players were as enlightened as you. (Excluding mad one's or those who deliberately seek the limelight through controversy, such as Bedi) Enjoy.

 

[Precambrian]

For me the pecking order will always be

1. M Muralitharan
2. Shane Warne
3. Anil Kumble.

The benchmark has been not wickets, but the way these bowlers been treated by the premier batsmen of their era. As to Differentiation between Murali and Warne, the way Sachin played them has been my criteria of judging them.. While he played Warne comfortable almost throughout his career, that's not been the case with Murali.

As regards Kumble, well, he's been always a distant third. And his stats are more than proof of that.

 

[adharcric]

Absolute rubbish.

Oh, you're an Indian. Shocking. If only Kumble was able to apply as much spin as you.

You're in a minority of one. If only all the ex pro's, pundits, experts, commentators, current players were as enlightened as you. (Excluding mad one's or those who deliberately seek the limelight through controversy, such as Bedi) Enjoy.

Hope you realize that your post looks far more like rubbish at the moment, given that you failed to actually make an argument. First of all, I'll agree that Kumble is a fair distance behind Warne and it's Murali > Warne >>> Kumble for me, although all three are world-class. That said, all the other arguments he made for Kumble are completely valid. Lack of support from the other bowlers, fielders and to a lesser degree batsmen in your team are one reason why Murali and Kumble go up somewhat and Warne comes down somewhat in my books (of course, it'll take a lot more than that to bridge the gap between Warne and Kumble).

 

[Ikki]

I strongly disagree that Warne was a clear tier better than Kumble. IMO the gap between Murali and Warne is a lot bigger than the gap between Warne and Kumble. Kumble is one of those bowlers whose value isn't well represented through his career average. One thing that is important to note is that the support he received from his fielders, particularly in run-saving positions was generally poor especially compared to the support Warne got. That alone would easily account for 3-4 runs in terms of bowling average. In the post-Mongia era Kumble has generally had mediocre keepers as well. Finally for much of his career the Indian batting was quite poor in overseas games which meant relatively little pressure on the batting when Kumble bowled. That alone accounts for a fair bit of his relatively poor performance abroad especially early in his career. Taking all this into consideration I think Kumble is only slightly below the level of Warne , both of whom are a fair distance below Murali.

Amazing. The distance between Warne and Kumble is large. In almost every facet Warne is clearly ahead. Kumble's away record is crap and it is debatable whether he is the best Indian spinner of all-time. And the things you mentioned that hindered Kumble also hindered guys like Prasanna and Gupte yet they were much better away.

Anyway, the order of spinners goes more like this for me: Warne > Murali > O'Reilly > Grimmett ... and then Kumble starts showing up with a bunch of others.