Has "Ashes" cricket always referred only to Australia-England?

[Matt79]

I'm asking because in his autobiography Bob Simpson clearly refers to tests between Australia-WI as "Ashes cricket". Not once, but half-a-dozen times - it wasn't a typo. In the context it appeared he was clearly using "Ashes" cricket to refer to being the contest between the two best teams in world cricket, and that Australia, which then held the Ashes could lose them to the WIs...

Maybe its just a personal thing with him, but I'm just wondering whether that interpretation used to be the common one, and the specification that its always Australia-England only came about once it was clear that that contest was necessarily the two best teams in the world?

Anyone got any ideas?

 

[Burgey]

Matt,

Haven't heard of any contest other than Aus v England referred to as the Ashes tbh. Thought it was a reference to the trophy.

It has been used in reference to the Rugby League tests, but I've certainly never heard it used in reference to the WI v Aus contests.

 

[Matt79]

Yeah, its definitely a reference to the trophy, but Simmo seemed to be suggesting he thought the Windies would take that if they beat Australia. He might have just been off-track, though its a strange thing for a captain of one of the sides involved to be unclear about...

 

[archie mac]

Yes sometimes I have read that, but it is more often from someone with little idea, for instance I remember a reference for US V Canada as playing for the ashes of cricket in their own contest.

Not saying BS does not know anything about cricket despite his Initials

 

[SJS]

Yeah, its definitely a reference to the trophy, but Simmo seemed to be suggesting he thought the Windies would take that if they beat Australia. He might have just been off-track, though its a strange thing for a captain of one of the sides involved to be unclear about...

Honestly, I find it very difficult to imagine he would do that. If he has actually done it by mistake (oh how?) he would be taken to pieces and one hasn't heard about it.

Which book is it and which publisher please.

 

[Matt79]

"Captain's Story", published 1966. My copy is the 1977 reprint, issued by Marlin Books.

 

[SJS]

"Captain's Story", published 1966. My copy is the 1977 reprint, issued by Marlin Books.

Hmm very strange.

 

[Richard]

Maybe he's being ironic and referring to how West Indies had overtaken England as most common challenger to Australia's throne?

Or maybe he's referring to something unrelated to the usual meaing of "Ashes" in cricket.

 

[The Sean]

Posted earlier on this but for some reason it hasn't shown...

I've never heard of an Ashes contest being referred to in anything other than Australia vs England. Obviously it all came from the trophy and subsequent mythology, and while other sports (such as Rugby League and even speedway IIRC) have used the term Ashes, it's never been to denote any contest other than Australia v England.

Given that the urn is supposed to be the ashes of English cricket, it would seem strange that Australia could play West Indies for them! Bob Simpson obviously had a reason for referring to it the way he did, and I'd be fascinated to find out what that reason was.

 

[Matt79]

Yeah, its a bit weird. As I said earlier, the context was clearly that WI had beaten the English, and were taking on the Australians, who at the time could reasonably claim to be the best team in the world - hence it was a world championship. As such, it seems that he was equating the Ashes trophy with the world championship of Test cricket - which until that point in time was probably reasonable enough - it would only have been with Worrell's WIs that a credible third party posed a threat to being the best team in the world, I'd have said.

 

[The Sean]

Yeah, I see what you're saying there and I daresay you're right. That way of thinking (Bobby's, not yours!) seems to miss the point of the whole Ashes concept though, and I'm surprised that Simpson would do that.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Simpson may be referring to the actual intensity of the matches; Ashes being seen as the pinnacle of Test cricket, and for a time the intensity and pressure of these clashes were similar.

 

[Matt79]

That would make sense, but at one point he actually made a comment about a draw meaning they would have "retained the Ashes". I'll have a flick through it when I have a minute and post the quotes in their context.

I wonder if he has an email address...

 

[SJS]

Simpson may be referring to the actual intensity of the matches; Ashes being seen as the pinnacle of Test cricket, and for a time the intensity and pressure of these clashes were similar.

I was thinking along the same lines. I am sure one has to go through the whole text (where such a reference appears) to see the context.

Its so inconceivable as to be completely ruled out that Simpson was unaware of what Ashes stood for.

 

[Goughy]

Having never heard of or read the book I cant say with any certainty, but this smells of Simpson having a hack ghost write the book from a few sessions of sitting down and talking with Bob.

The closest Simpson probably got to writing the book was to have his name slapped on the cover and the phrasing and wording is probably that of the ghost writer who by the sounds of it had little cricketing historical knowledge.

Could be wrong though

 

[Matt79]

Here's three occurences (all on different pages) with the surrounding sentences.
Regarding arriving in the West Indies for the 1965 Australian tour:
"We held the Ashes and we thought the West Indies had the job in front of them to take them from us."

On preparations for the 2nd test of the 1965 series:
"To balance this picture, our chances received a body blow three days before the Test when O'Neill, whom I considered vital to our Ashes chances, injured his back while fielding in the Trinidad match."

On reflection regarding the 1965 tour as a whole:
"The 1965 tour was a disasterous one for Australia. We lost the Ashes and came in for a good deal of criticism from the Press".

 

[SJS]

Here's three occurences (all on different pages) with the surrounding sentences.
Regarding arriving in the West Indies for the 1965 Australian tour:
"We held the Ashes and we thought the West Indies had the job in front of them to take them from us."

On preparations for the 2nd test of the 1965 series:
"To balance this picture, our chances received a body blow three days before the Test when O'Neill, whom I considered vital to our Ashes chances, injured his back while fielding in the Trinidad match."

On reflection regarding the 1965 tour as a whole:
"The 1965 tour was a disasterous one for Australia. We lost the Ashes and came in for a good deal of criticism from the Press".

 

[Richard]

Here's three occurences (all on different pages) with the surrounding sentences.
Regarding arriving in the West Indies for the 1965 Australian tour:
"We held the Ashes and we thought the West Indies had the job in front of them to take them from us."

On preparations for the 2nd test of the 1965 series:
"To balance this picture, our chances received a body blow three days before the Test when O'Neill, whom I considered vital to our Ashes chances, injured his back while fielding in the Trinidad match."

On reflection regarding the 1965 tour as a whole:
"The 1965 tour was a disasterous one for Australia. We lost the Ashes and came in for a good deal of criticism from the Press".

Just... makes no sense at all...

 

[The Sean]

My thoughts exactly - I'm as confused as I was before I read the quotes in context. Just makes no sense, I find it hard to believe that Simpson could make that kind of mistake.

 

[cpr]

agree with Goughy on the ghost writer front