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Thread: Which 4 are better?

  1. #1
    FBU
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    Which 4 are better?

    Caddick, Gough, Cork and White or Harmison, Hoggard, Flintoff and Jones?

    Caddick and co played 187 games taking 653 wickets (30 5fers)
    Harmison and co played 200 games taking 686 wickets (20 5fers)

  2. #2
    Harmison, Hoggard, Flintoff and Jones generally. The other 4 might be better in damp, bowler friendly conditions but everything else I'd go with Harmison, Hoggard, Flintoff and Jones. Caddick is a bit like a Harmison, Gough was good but nothing special, Cork is massively over-rated and White was decent enough. Caddick, Gough and Cork all bowled in more bowler friendly conditions than the present lot and so their figures flatter them.
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    Cricketer Of The Year wpdavid's Avatar
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    The presence of Flintoff & Jones at their peak probably gives the 2005 lineup the edge. However, with the new ball Gough probably > Hoggard and Caddick maybe = Harmison.

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    Flintoff, Jones, Harmison, Hoggard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scaly piscine View Post
    Harmison, Hoggard, Flintoff and Jones generally. The other 4 might be better in damp, bowler friendly conditions but everything else I'd go with Harmison, Hoggard, Flintoff and Jones. Caddick is a bit like a Harmison, Gough was good but nothing special, Cork is massively over-rated and White was decent enough. Caddick, Gough and Cork all bowled in more bowler friendly conditions than the present lot and so their figures flatter them.

    Harmison and co played 100 Tests at home and 83 away
    Caddick and co played 99 Tests at home and 106 away.

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    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    The inclusion of White in the first group means that no other reason is needed to choose the 2nd
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    Flintoff, Jones, Harmison, Hoggard.

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    Hall of Fame Member grecian's Avatar
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    2005 Ashes, by so far it's untrue.

    Caddick's ridiculous performances, in the first innings, when it really matters, made him a negligible bowler, so Harmi beats him, for me, despite his ****e bowling ATM.

    Cork was just an average county trundler, one of the biggest goldenarms I've ever seen. Hoggard has proving his class on pitches that don't do everything, for him.

    Gough lacked height and bounce for a fast bowler, and never seamed it, whole-hearted trier though. Jones was quicker in that series, and had the height to cause problem with bounce as well as swing.

    White was great for that series, quick and swung it, but Freddie was world-class in 2005, and troubled a much better batting side.
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    The latter by far, of course.

    Which will be further endorsed when Richard inevitably appears and picks the former.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PathanPower View Post
    The latter by far, of course.

    Which will be further endorsed when Richard inevitably appears and picks the former.
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    Second one.
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    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixFire View Post
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    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grecian View Post
    Caddick's ridiculous performances, in the first innings, when it really matters, made him a negligible bowler
    That's so ridiculous it's untrue. Caddick played a massive part in winning many matches for England. It's perfectly possible to influence the game in the second-innings, otherwise there'd be no point playing it. Saying that it has to have been in the first-innings to matter is one of the most stupid things anyone has ever said.

  14. #14
    Cricket Web Staff Member Richard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBU View Post
    Caddick, Gough, Cork and White or Harmison, Hoggard, Flintoff and Jones?

    Caddick and co played 187 games taking 653 wickets (30 5fers)
    Harmison and co played 200 games taking 686 wickets (20 5fers)
    The thing about this is, it's a case of times. Caddick, especially, had a very up-and-down career. His 1993-1998 spell was, by-and-large, less good than poor; his 1999-May2001 one was superb; and his June2001-2002 one was pretty average with the odd good bit mixed in.

    Caddick, simply, was a volatile bowler. You never really knew what was going to turn-up.

    Gough, Jones, White and maybe now Flintoff, are all bowlers who had their careers damaged seriously by injury. Cork had it damaged by other factors, mostly relating to poor selection.

    Harmison is simply rubbish, and White is IMO massively underrated. He had the ability to do more with the ball - and at 90mph pace - than most bowlers ever do. Sadly, the injuries took their toll.

    In 2000 and 2000\01, however, that attack (with the addition of Giles and Croft when spin was neccessary) bowled better than I've ever seen any attack bowl, including Flintoff and Jones (and that's virtually all it was, with Hoggard making a belated contribution) in 2005. Both attacks had conditions that suited them, whether that be seam in the pitch, good balls (and outfields) for conventional or reverse swing, whatever. Sadly, neither attack has ever really had the chance to prove themselves in other conditions, because none stayed together for more than a year.

    Combined figures, TBH, don't really tell you anything (not least because the latter includes games against substandard sides, which none of the former ever played against - the last Test any played in was 2002\03, just before England played their first series against substandard opposition, Zimbabwe in 2003). It's the figures - and the team feats they engineered (both, for instance, were playing alongside powerful but brittle batting-line-ups) in those two short periods which count. May 2000 to May 2001 (14 Tests), and March 2004 to September 2005 (17 Tests). Everything else relates to different parts of said bowlers' careers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    The thing about this is, it's a case of times. Caddick, especially, had a very up-and-down career. His 1993-1998 spell was, by-and-large, less good than poor; his 1999-May2001 one was superb; and his June2001-2002 one was pretty average with the odd good bit mixed in.

    Caddick, simply, was a volatile bowler. You never really knew what was going to turn-up.

    Gough, Jones, White and maybe now Flintoff, are all bowlers who had their careers damaged seriously by injury. Cork had it damaged by other factors, mostly relating to poor selection.

    Harmison is simply rubbish, and White is IMO massively underrated. He had the ability to do more with the ball - and at 90mph pace - than most bowlers ever do. Sadly, the injuries took their toll.

    In 2000 and 2000\01, however, that attack (with the addition of Giles and Croft when spin was neccessary) bowled better than I've ever seen any attack bowl, including Flintoff and Jones (and that's virtually all it was, with Hoggard making a belated contribution) in 2005. Both attacks had conditions that suited them, whether that be seam in the pitch, good balls (and outfields) for conventional or reverse swing, whatever. Sadly, neither attack has ever really had the chance to prove themselves in other conditions, because none stayed together for more than a year.

    Combined figures, TBH, don't really tell you anything (not least because the latter includes games against substandard sides, which none of the former ever played against - the last Test any played in was 2002\03, just before England played their first series against substandard opposition, Zimbabwe in 2003). It's the figures - and the team feats they engineered (both, for instance, were playing alongside powerful but brittle batting-line-ups) in those two short periods which count. May 2000 to May 2001 (14 Tests), and March 2004 to September 2005 (17 Tests). Everything else relates to different parts of said bowlers' careers.
    I knew you wouldn't be able to get through a post of that length without eventually bringing out that annoying "said" thing you use in seemingly every said post.

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