View Poll Results: Who is better ?

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  • Pele

    16 51.61%
  • Maradona

    7 22.58%
  • Can't decide

    1 3.23%
  • Which one is the leg spinner?

    7 22.58%
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Thread: Pele vs Maradona

  1. #76
    International Coach Ikki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sean View Post
    Puskas also played in '62 and didn't score at all - though he was TBF well past his best. Anyway I don't want to get into a quote war, but Pele was also a playmaker, and still scored 12 goals in 14 WC games, a better rate than most. And - as I say - has a fair claim to be the player of the tournament twice. Remembering too that of his four WCs, he only played in every match of one of them.
    I think that's being a bit misleading. He was a playmaker but not in the mould of a Cryuff or a Maradona IMO. He was more like Puskas in that he was an incredible goal-scorer but had vision enough to sit just outside the box and play-make. Whereas players like Cryuff or Maradona you'd see regularly on the half-way line in many matches. I'd say Maradona was more like a Dalglish whereas Pele was more like an Henry.

    And really, even aside from all that, none of those guys come close to even the 1-goal-per-game stat in RSSSF Pele has. It's the kind of stat that if taken that seriously suggests he was a head and shoulders better than everyone else - especially considering it's 1000+ games worth - akin to Bradman. Not top-scoring in those WCs is quite a farce. That's how I look at it. Either he didn't play to his level at any of those WCs or the level of the league was far below the level of the rest of the world. The guy claims to have scored 100+ goals in some seasons and have played 100+ games in some seasons...I mean come on.
    Last edited by Ikki; 17-06-2010 at 08:53 AM.
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  2. #77
    Cricketer Of The Year The Sean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Not top-scoring in those WCs is quite a farce.
    Ok, you seem pretty obsessed with that single fact, despite everything else he contributed and the circumstances I cited, so if that's your measure fair enough. I'm out.
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  3. #78
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Samuel_Vimes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    During Pele's time, Santos had by far the best players and steam-rolled the opposition.
    they didn't, though. All those ATGs you mentioned, during Santos' great age in the early 1960s, played for different clubs - and yet it was Pelé's club that won nearly everything. Only Zito - whose name hardly carries any recognition today - and the goalkeeper Gilmar played regularly for the Brazil national team in World Cups.
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  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sean View Post
    Ok, you seem pretty obsessed with that single fact, despite everything else he contributed and the circumstances I cited, so if that's your measure fair enough. I'm out.
    I'm sorry but it's the most glaring difference and one that I haven't found an explanation for. The guy played for about 20 years at one club and kept up a goal rate of a goal a game (at least) and yet...never top scored at a WC. I have no doubts that he is amongst the greatest goalscorers/footballers of all time, but to that extent? No, I think he is overrated.


  5. #80
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Considering the way I follow football, it's a pretty outlandish story. It could be true, but why should I listen to it? There is no proof of anything, anywhere.

    Really? Which documentaries claimed that painkillers taken in his youth were actually PED? The NYT is renown for knowing about football? Maybe Diego should have played for the Cosmos like Pele.

    Let's say I heard about it, thanks to you. Now show me proof. Not some drivel written as fact. Actual proof: i.e. tests. Thanks.
    Wow, you really know nothing about this and, worse than that, you dont even realize.

    Firstly regarding the sources I quoted, the NYT and The Guardian would not be able to print such things if untrue without fear of being sued. As I said, this isnt new stuff.

    Secondly, you want a 10 year old Maradona tested? You have an unreasonable expectation of what is possible.

    Thirdly,as a pre-pubesant child he was taken to 'Dr.' Cacho Paladino who was told to 'fix him' and, with the tacit approval of his family, Maradona was fed a concoction of drugs and vitamins though injections and tablets that hurt his long term health. Of course you will never have heard of Cacho Paladino but given you are so well aquainted with the Maradona story perhaps he is a figment of my imagination

    Im not saying this to criticise Maradona. If anything, he is a victim. Im just a little suprised by your combination of lack of knowledge with such a staunch and uncompromising position.
    Last edited by Goughy; 17-06-2010 at 09:11 AM.
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  6. #81
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Uppercut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy View Post
    No problem. I just assumed it was something that people who have followed football for a long time would know. I have no problem with being asked for a source.

    I dont know the medical science but its been said on a number of occasions that Maradona had to have his knees scraped regularly, in addition to other medical problems, to get rid of build up due to the growth agents he was fed as a child.
    I'd heard it a lot of times of course, but you hear these things all the time, mainly in taxis, usually labelled as "widely-accepted facts". Definitely worth investigating in any case. My now-deceased Grandfather used to rant about it all the time, which if anything made me more skeptical since he was a renowned bull**** artist.
    Last edited by Uppercut; 17-06-2010 at 09:17 AM.
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel_Vimes View Post
    they didn't, though. All those ATGs you mentioned, during Santos' great age in the early 1960s, played for different clubs - and yet it was Pelé's club that won nearly everything. Only Zito - whose name hardly carries any recognition today - and the goalkeeper Gilmar played regularly for the Brazil national team in World Cups.
    Coutinho and Pepe don't count? They had a fantastic team and had a MUnited-like domination of the league during the late 50s to pretty much the whole of the 60s.

    The 58 squad, for example, had a range of players from numerous clubs and Santos was represented well with 3 and only Flamengo had more players with 4 in the team.

    The 62 squad had 7 players from Santos - the most with Botafogo 2nd at 5. The 66 squad had 6 Santos players - again the most from any Brazilian club, with Botafogo with 4 the second most. The 70 team had 5 players from Santos - again the most players from any Brazilian club, Cruzeiro and Botafogo with 3 each.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy View Post
    Wow, you really know nothing about this and, worse than that, you dont even realize.

    Firstly regarding the sources I quoted, the NYT and The Guardian would not be able to print such things if untrue without fear of being sued. As I said, this isnt new stuff.
    You know why? Because there is no proof. As Uppercut has said, you hear about this kind of thing all the time, but frankly I don't make it a point to remember crap that can't be proven.

    Secondly, you want a 10 year old Maradona tested? You have an unreasonable expectation of what is possible.
    You show me any proof, like that it was common or that someone from then admitted to it, etc and that'll at least make it interesting. You pretending as if it's some fact, and then only have 1-2 articles to back it up is not really an argument worth listening to.

    Thirdly,as a pre-pubesant child he was taken to 'Dr.' Cacho Paladino who was told to 'fix him' and, with the tacit approval of his family, Maradona was fed a concoction of drugs and vitamins though injections and tablets that hurt his long term health. Of course you will never have heard of Cacho Paladino but given you are so well aquainted with the Maradona story perhaps he is a figment of my imagination
    It could be Dr. Seuss for all I care. Show me proof of Maradona's family accepting or admitting such a thing.

    Im not saying this to criticise Maradona. If anything, he is a victim. Im just a little suprised by your combination of lack of knowledge with such a staunch and uncompromising position.
    My position isn't uncompromising. You said your story is factual...I am asking you to prove it. Hearsay is not very strong for me. Maybe my standards for proof are too high?

  9. #84
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Samuel_Vimes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    Coutinho and Pepe don't count?
    Yes, well done, you found the same wikipedia article. You failed to click on their articles, though, which would reveal that neither Coutinho nor Pepe have World Cup appearances.
    Last edited by Samuel_Vimes; 17-06-2010 at 09:31 AM.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    I'm sorry but it's the most glaring difference and one that I haven't found an explanation for. The guy played for about 20 years at one club and kept up a goal rate of a goal a game (at least) and yet...never top scored at a WC. I have no doubts that he is amongst the greatest goalscorers/footballers of all time, but to that extent? No, I think he is overrated.
    Well, I think we realised your last point a while ago.

    As for never topscoring in world cups:
    1958 - only 17 years old and not picked for the first two games.
    1962 - missed most of the game through injury
    1966 - Brazil only played 3 games

    So that leaves 1970, when he's generally reckoned to have been outstanding but didn't happen to top score.

    Anyway, you've made it clear that your minds made up despite what others may offer to the contrary, so time to do something else.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel_Vimes View Post
    Yes, well done, you found the same wikipedia article. You failed to click on their articles, though, which would reveal that neither Coutinho nor Pepe have World Cup appearances.
    Actually, I wasn't referring to them having WC appearances or them being ATGs. I hadn't even checked. I am talking about the fact that they were regularly in the Brazilian side and won a mass of titles with Pele. Frankly, I did have to look at the WC squads WC by WC because I can't/haven't memorised them all. I just knew that Santos regularly had a large portion of their side in the national team and were the strongest team easily during that period. And by practically all measures they were.

    I think I pretty much proved you wrong with regards to them not having a strong side. Even when you check the squads in the WC, they come from all over and aren't concentrated. The players that regularly played were of few who both started for Brazil and played in the same at club level. And even in that respect Santos was well represented with often 2-3 players even in 58 where they had their least amount of players in the side during Pele's career.

    Quote Originally Posted by wpdavid View Post
    Well, I think we realised your last point a while ago.

    As for never topscoring in world cups:
    1958 - only 17 years old and not picked for the first two games.
    1962 - missed most of the game through injury
    1966 - Brazil only played 3 games

    So that leaves 1970, when he's generally reckoned to have been outstanding but didn't happen to top score.

    Anyway, you've made it clear that your minds made up despite what others may offer to the contrary, so time to do something else.
    In 66 Brazil were eliminated precisely because Pele didn't score enough, that's why they only played 3 games. The only tourney really that you can scrap is 62 where he only played 1 full game. You can strike off 58 for thinking he was too young but, ironically, that's the tourney he scored the most in. At his peak in 1970 he had the best team, won the tourney comfortably and was outscored by even his teammates.

    So of course I won't change my mind, nothing's been brought to me to consider otherwise. For me his goal-scoring is amongst the best ever, but for me the Bradmanesque likeness people depict for his goal-scoring is exaggerated. Hence, why I think he is overrated. I call the guy one of the greatest of all time, I am certainly not being unfair to him. It's not like you have to be a great goal scorer to be a great player for it to hinge on this point - that's not my argument at all. He could have been the best player at all those WCs and I'd have no trouble accepting that as such a feat is not really about goal-scoring. My points were regarding his goal-scoring only. It's undoubtable that he had an affect on his team, the WCs and the world.
    Last edited by Ikki; 17-06-2010 at 10:47 AM.

  12. #87
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    You know why? Because there is no proof. As Uppercut has said, you hear about this kind of thing all the time, but frankly I don't make it a point to remember crap that can't be proven.

    You show me any proof, like that it was common or that someone from then admitted to it, etc and that'll at least make it interesting. You pretending as if it's some fact, and then only have 1-2 articles to back it up is not really an argument worth listening to.

    It could be Dr. Seuss for all I care. Show me proof of Maradona's family accepting or admitting such a thing.

    My position isn't uncompromising. You said your story is factual...I am asking you to prove it. Hearsay is not very strong for me. Maybe my standards for proof are too high?
    Firstly, if that is your standard of proof then yes, it is too high. If you only accept unequivocal, primary evidence then you have just wiped out a lot of the history of the world.

    My big problem is that you are ignorant on Maradona and his life and story and yet are trying to speak from a position of authority. I could keep giving you names such as Francisco Cornejo who has talked about how he looked after Maradona and had permission from his parents to do what was needed and how he took him to Paladino but there is no point.

    There is a whole host of stuff out there on this and other topics. Rather than me spoon feeding you it, how about you read a book or two and bring your knowledge level to where you incorrectly think it already is.
    Last edited by Goughy; 17-06-2010 at 10:15 AM.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy View Post
    Firstly, if that is your standard of proof then yes, it is too high. If you only accept unequivocal, primary evidence then you have just wiped out a lot of the history of the world.

    My big problem is that you are ignorant on Maradona and his life and story and yet are trying to speak from a position of authority. I could keep giving you names such as Francisco Cornejo who has talked about how he looked after Maradona and had permission from his parents to do what was needed and how he took him to Paladino but there is no point.

    There is a whole host of stuff out there on this and other topics. Rather than me spoon feeding you it, how about you read a book or two and bring your knowledge level to where you incorrectly think it already is.
    Sorry, but this is rubbish. I am an avid football follower. Do I know everything? No, and I don't claim to know. But I know a lot about Maradona and had your story been true/verified I would certainly have known about it. You've got some cockamamie story that even if you Google you can't find much on and you think my standard is too high. You say his parents agreed to him getting those shots, I say show me where that information is validated. All you've done is bring forth a story, name 2 articles, name a doctor, and not even shown how in anyway they connect to Maradona or the truth. If such a thing were so true and widespread you'd hear about it much, much, more often in every kind of medium. This is the world game and one of it's biggest stars, it'd be pretty hard to hide.

    I'll be even more frank with you; whilst it appears I am way in favour of Maradona over Pele, he is not even close to what I consider my favourite footballer so he is no such idol that I can't hear ill about. You prove it beyond silly hearsay and I'll accept it. This "wow, I can't believe you didn't know this story" is not endearing nor does it help your case any. You spoon-feed me some proof and if you're right I'll apologise and change my stance, until then...turn down the crap.
    Last edited by Ikki; 17-06-2010 at 10:25 AM.

  14. #89
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy View Post
    Firstly regarding the sources I quoted, the NYT and The Guardian would not be able to print such things if untrue without fear of being sued. As I said, this isnt new stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ikki View Post
    You know why? Because there is no proof.
    Thats not how it works. Newspapers (and lots of them) printing untrue stories get sued for libel or at the least print an apology or retraction.

    Saying there is no proof does not allow you carte blanche to print what you want. Newspapers like The Independent, The Guardian and The New York Times, amongst others printing stories that talk about the childhood drug usage of Maradona would be in a pretty sticky situation if there was no proof.

    Im not really arguing about the evidence here, just your bizarre method of dismissing pretty reputable newspapers and saying they can print what they want without evidence.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy View Post
    Thats not how it works. Newspapers (and lots of them) printing untrue stories get sued for libel or at the least print an apology or retraction.

    Saying there is no proof does not allow you carte blanche to print what you want. Newspapers like The Independent, The Guardian and The New York Times, amongst others printing stories that talk about the childhood drug usage of Maradona would be in a pretty sticky situation if there was no proof.

    Im not really arguing about the evidence here, just your bizarre method of dismissing pretty reputable newspapers and saying they can print what they want without evidence.
    Ok, let's make it clear...I am not dismissing the story because it was the NYT that printed it. Stop building a strawman. I don't think the NYT is much of an authority on football or Maradona but that's not my argument. I simply said the article sounds like a hit-job the way the author keeps attacking Diego.

    I am dismissing it because no one else has printed it...and there is no proof I can find, and apparently that you can show me. The NYT is not a bastion of journalism. It's a reputable source, but a story without proof is ultimately worthless. Naming a doctor who claims to have worked with Maradona is not proof. You claimed this story is widely known...it's not even easily found on Google and non-existant on Wikipedia. And I don't mention those two sources as if the story will be validated by them mentioning it...but at least it would be as you claim widespread enough for people to quiz over.

    You claimed it has been talked about years upon years and in documentaries, books, etc. Ok, name some or quote something that can prove it to some extent. Either you man up and admit it isn't, or you prove it is and I man up and admit I was wrong. It's no skin off my nose to admit being wrong; but I hate being treated like an idiot.
    Last edited by Ikki; 17-06-2010 at 10:49 AM.

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