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Wicketkeeping

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
CricInfo regulars are familiar with this. I have noticed some of the wicketkeepers of old times talk about technique of wicketkeeping and its absence in modern-day cricket. Dereyk Murray said it may have to do with the absence of quality spinners. Former India wicketkeeper Narendra Tamhane disliked diving, because it is only glamorous, but does little more. Murray and Farrokh Engineer are not really happy with Gilchrist and Stewart as wicketkeepers, saying that they're not great technically.

Perhaps the need for a batting wicketkeeper has also resulted in a decline in wicketkeeping. It started with Australia's Adam Gilchrist, a wicketkeeper whose batting was of top-6 quality and at present, is the most effective batsman in international cricket. Every other team wanted an Adam Gilchrist. They tried sevral experiments, such as opening the batting with a keeper, or getting a batsman to don the gloves, without much success. In a search for a wicketkeeper-batsman, they have forgotten about a wicketkeeper's main job.

In the Ashes series of 2002-03, Alec Stewart's 'keeping had its weaknesses, at least according to Ian Botham and Ian Chapell, though his batting was still good. Ian Chapell was highly critical of Stewart's wicketkeeping, through the home series against SA in the summer of 2003 and emphasised more on the need for a wicketkeeper who can do the job behind the stumps. Runs are a bonus. Stewart has lasted for a very long time in the team.

One team that is rather badly affected by this is the Indian team. They have tried several glovemen in the recent past and failed to come up with a gloveman who can get runs. Either they can't score much, or if the can, they drop the ball when it isn't needed. Deep Dasgupta's batting was decent, if not great, but in the home series v/s England, the trouble started, as he dropped as many as 5 catches. This continued against Zim, especially in Delhi. The Carl Hooper drop in Guyana was the last straw. Worse, they just look at one or 2 tournaments, then if the keeper doesn't score, they drop him. Who can forget the Rahul Dravid experiment? There was at least 1 dropped catch an innings!

Then there is Kumar Sangakkara. Started off well in Tests, but though his batting was quite good, his keeping was not that great. Whether his sledging had anything to do with this, it is not known, but he made several horrendous mistakes in the World Cup, where he even missed the stumps when Gilchrist was far out of the crease! They dropped him, got someone named Prasanna who could not bat, then got back to Romesh, whose batting is not that great, then gone back to Sangakkara in Tests.

Countless other examples exist. I think a wicketkeeper has to do his main job well. If he can bat as well as a top-6 batsman, it;s a bonus, though at least 20-30 runs are needed. He should help the in-form batsman get runs and make a partnership. This is what will make him effective. Your opinion?
 

mavric41

State Vice-Captain
I thought Gilchrist had a particularly bad test as keeper last test, but there is no chance of him being dropped.
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
Gilchrist is the most effective batsman in international cricket. There's no way he can be dropped. Given that, his wicketkeeping is quite good, unlike Dravid's or Sangakkara's.

As for a bad match or 2, this must be what Murray and the others were talking about.
 

krkode

State Captain
The point of a wicketkeeper, I feel, is to catch the ball when it comes their way, stump when they can, and not let go any byes if they can help it.

They don't need to taunt, they don't need to dive if unnecessary, and they don't need to be able to bat like Gilchrist.

Gilchrist, Flower, and Stewart were boons to their team when they were around because they could bat like a batsman. That's great.

But if they can't keep, they're not worthit. That said, I think Gilchrist could make most any side even if he didn't keep. So could Flower if he was still playing, and Stewart, in some sides, if he was still playing.
 

Bazza

International 12th Man
It's a good debating point. England have for so long stuck with Alec Stewart because they haven't trusted the 5 or 6 others to put runs on the board. Everyone knows Jack Russell was a better keeper - he averaged 27 to Stewart's 39. Can we afford to lose 24 runs per match? Maybe, if a superior keeper means one more chance is taken, that will be worth the same on average.

Opinion is divided but now in Chris Read (the best candidate to replace Stewart) England have someone who will average about high 20s, chipping in the odd 50 and maybe one or two centuries, and hopefully his keeping which is probably superior will add something else to the team.

Saying that, whilst Stewart took alot of stick I can never remember him dropping many catches or even missing many chances at all - the worst keeper in test history must be James Foster who wasn't picked for his batting, and presumably not for his keeping either! :(
 

anzac

International Debutant
IMO the decline re 'keepers started b4 Gilchrist, but he has probably highlighted the issue as he is such an expolsive batsman.......however both he & Andy Flower are / were still specialist 'keepers rather than a convert like Stewart who was originally selected & played as a Test opener.

Many teams have followed Engalnd's example by picking a 'keeper who is capable of scoring runs, especially if their batting is not strong or if they want extra bowling options - it gives extra flexibility & the 'keeper's role is now more of an allrounder, but with a solid batting average around the 30s rather than the 20s.

I also think ODIs has a lot to do with it for the same reasons as above, as well as the trend towards more 'neutral' ODI type pitches that are appearing in Test cricket - the less seam / swing / spin, the less requirement for a specialist 'keeper.

So far as there being less quality spinners around I would say the same could be said so far as any bowling type is concerned, especially swing - and again I put this down to ODIs and pitches as ODIs seem to be the dominant form of the game so far as volume of matches goes both International & domestic.

I can't see anything changing until such time as there are less mindless ODIs, and the pitches get a bit more 'life' in them....

:(
 

Adamc

Cricketer Of The Year
Apparently Tatenda Taibu didn't start his career as a 'keeper but since taking over the role has looked quite brilliant from what i've seen. In Australia's 735/6 he conceded only 4 byes, and they should probably have been given as runs. He is a handy batsman as well, but I think he is one of very few international wicketkeepers who is actually the best keeper in their particular country. Taibu is in the traditional 'keepers mould, being small and agile, unlike perhaps Gilchrist, Jacobs, Stewart etc.
 

hourn

U19 Cricketer
I think Gilly's keeping is a bit underrated, although in the past 12 months it has been at its worst in about 4 years.

Over the years, he has taken some absolute gems, and generally been solid.

But he has been frustrating this year. But he's batting is just so good. And he'd probably make any other team in history (bar maybe one or two of the best) based on his batting alone.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
hourn said:
And he'd probably make any other team in history (bar maybe one or two of the best) based on his batting alone.
This is something I would dispute - I don't think he'd be that good a player if he were just a batsman and were batting in the middle order since I feel his style of play comes from having the keeping to fall back on.
 

Langeveldt

Soutie
Id rather have a guy come in at 6 with an average of 60 and a couple of drops a season, than a guy who averages 18 and no drops. Its that simple...
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Langeveldt said:
Id rather have a guy come in at 6 with an average of 60 and a couple of drops a season, than a guy who averages 18 and no drops. Its that simple...
But which country has a keeper who averages 18 and bats at 6?
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
If the batsman is VERY, VERY good, I'd use him. But his wicketkeeping has to be good enough to save his team.

I'd also go in for a wicketkeeper who would have 20-25 runs an innings and keep him at N.8/9, below the batting/bowling all-rounders. Every team has a different type of all-rounder. Aussies have Gilchrist. England now has Craig White, or Flintoff. The Kiwis have Cairns, Styris, Oram and Adams, but McCullum is nothing great with gloves or bat. South Africa has Kallis, Klusener, Pollock and Hall, but Boucher's quite good, with bat and gloves.
 

Neil Pickup

Cricket Web Moderator
Stewart has always kept for Surrey so it's unfair to label him as a convert. He was picked for England as a specialist batsman because at that time we were going down the road of the specialist keeper.

And Jack Russell would have played 150+ Tests had I been in charge. ATM, I rate Taibu as the best keeper in the world.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
This has always been a subject that has baffled me totally.
Why all this sentimental bunk (to borrow Matthew Engel's phrase) talked about specialist wicketkeepers?
What is wrong with picking a good wicketkeeper who is a very good batsman ahead of a very good wicketkeeper who is not much of a batsman?
Because, in the majority of cases, this is what happens. To call the wicketkeeping of Andy Flower, Moin Khan, Alec Stewart, Adam Gilchrist or Ridley Jacobs not up to the standards of Test-cricket is frankly insane. Just because Jack Russell and Rashid Latif are wicketkeeping geniouses does NOT mean they have a right to an immidiate passage into the international team if you can only score runs in the mid-late 20s.
There is NO NEED for a brilliant wicketkeeper if you have a good one who can bat far better than the brilliant one.
Arjun, quite why you continually feel the need to criticise Stewart's wicketkeeping is totally beyond me. He never, ever let England or Surrey down any more than almost any wicketkeeper has ever let their side down.
There are occasional instances of substandard wicketkeepers being selected for international cricket, for instance Dasgupta somehow managed to be bracketed as a wicketkeeper. IMO he was never THAT good a batsman anyway. Dravid is a makeshift 'keeper who is barely good enough to 'keep in ODIs and no-one has ever pretended he is anything else.
Sangakkara is another badly mistaken CIP - since 2002, his wicketkeeping has been more than acceptible by Test standards. Before then there was justification in the view that he shouldn't be 'keeping because his 'keeping wasn't good enough. However, this is beside the point because the issue I feel is often overlooked is that both Sangakkara AND Kalu are IMO more than good enough to play Tests and ODIs as specialist batsmen. Kalu is now only a marginally better wicketkeeper than Sangakkara but Sangakkara is a much better outfielder and hence Kalu should take the gloves.
Regarding Tatenda Taibu, he seems a very capable batsman to me, if not quite Test-numer-five material. And if anyone suggests a better candidate to keep wicket for Zimbabwe I'd like to see him.
And why on Earth would anyone want Chris Read in the Test team when he's so clealy not up to the task of averaging 30 in Test-cricket? Geirant Jones, while not a brilliant wicketkeeper by all reports, is at the least very good with the gloves and IMO could average in the 40s. THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION - Jones' ability is still by no means a certainty. But from what I have read and seen, this suggests it to me.
 

Magrat Garlick

Global Moderator
Richard said:
This has always been a subject that has baffled me totally.
Why all this sentimental bunk (to borrow Matthew Engel's phrase) talked about specialist wicketkeepers?
What is wrong with picking a good wicketkeeper who is a very good batsman ahead of a very good wicketkeeper who is not much of a batsman?
Because, in the majority of cases, this is what happens. To call the wicketkeeping of Andy Flower, Moin Khan, Alec Stewart, Adam Gilchrist or Ridley Jacobs not up to the standards of Test-cricket is frankly insane. Just because Jack Russell and Rashid Latif are wicketkeeping geniouses does NOT mean they have a right to an immidiate passage into the international team if you can only score runs in the mid-late 20s.
There is NO NEED for a brilliant wicketkeeper if you have a good one who can bat far better than the brilliant one.
Arjun, quite why you continually feel the need to criticise Stewart's wicketkeeping is totally beyond me. He never, ever let England or Surrey down any more than almost any wicketkeeper has ever let their side down.
There are occasional instances of substandard wicketkeepers being selected for international cricket, for instance Dasgupta somehow managed to be bracketed as a wicketkeeper. IMO he was never THAT good a batsman anyway. Dravid is a makeshift 'keeper who is barely good enough to 'keep in ODIs and no-one has ever pretended he is anything else.
Sangakkara is another badly mistaken CIP - since 2002, his wicketkeeping has been more than acceptible by Test standards. Before then there was justification in the view that he shouldn't be 'keeping because his 'keeping wasn't good enough. However, this is beside the point because the issue I feel is often overlooked is that both Sangakkara AND Kalu are IMO more than good enough to play Tests and ODIs as specialist batsmen. Kalu is now only a marginally better wicketkeeper than Sangakkara but Sangakkara is a much better outfielder and hence Kalu should take the gloves.
Regarding Tatenda Taibu, he seems a very capable batsman to me, if not quite Test-numer-five material. And if anyone suggests a better candidate to keep wicket for Zimbabwe I'd like to see him.
And why on Earth would anyone want Chris Read in the Test team when he's so clealy not up to the task of averaging 30 in Test-cricket? Geirant Jones, while not a brilliant wicketkeeper by all reports, is at the least very good with the gloves and IMO could average in the 40s. THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION - Jones' ability is still by no means a certainty. But from what I have read and seen, this suggests it to me.
Hmmm...only problem is, the brilliant keeper could contribute MORE to his team even though he puts less in the scorebook. Think about it, if Ponting is dropped by a poor keeper on 10 where a good keeper might have caught him and then goes on to make 150 - that's quite a lot of runs gone to due to poor keeping. Also, the poor keeper might let about 10 byes more past him in an innings than the good keeper.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Gorh, sometimes I wish people would RTFP.
Did I ever mention the idea of picking a poor wicketkeeper over a good or brilliant one? Any wicketkeeper who is picked must, simply, be up to a certain standard. Once you exceed that standard all that matters is batting ability. Once you fail to reach that standard, I would not consider your wicketkeeping worthwhile to be considered in selection.
For me, Stewart, Gilchrist, Sangakkara, Jacobs, Flower and Moin are all up to the standards expected in Test-cricket for wicketkeepers. Hence, if they are better batsmen than any other wicketkeepers of this standard, they should be selected.
 

Neil Pickup

Cricket Web Moderator
That fails to answer the point that there is still the difference between a Stewart and a Russell as there is between a Langer and a Haddin.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Richard said:
Geirant Jones, while not a brilliant wicketkeeper by all reports, is at the least very good with the gloves and IMO could average in the 40s. THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION - Jones' ability is still by no means a certainty. But from what I have read and seen, this suggests it to me.

Based on what?

1 season batting at number 7 in county cricket?
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
No, two thirds of a season averaging all but 60, regardless of where he came in.
I don't think batting position detracts from runs scored.
 

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