Who was the second best West Indian fast bowler?

[Red]

If Marshall is the best, and I think he is, you can argue any of the following could be second best:

Ambrose, Garner, Holding & Roberts.

I tend to think Ambrose is slightly ahead (and if forced to, he'd be my choice), but I also think you can't find a better first change bowler than Garner. Holding and Roberts were as good as anyone really, Holding just raw pace and that action, and plenty from Roberts' era consider Roberts to be the best they faced.

Bishop would be included and might have been better than the lot if not for injury. Walsh was always the supporting class, durable and dependable, and elite in terms of a fast bowler, but he was a rung below the others imo. Wes Hall, like Walsh, is a rung below the others, elite but not quite as good.

 

[trundler]

Holding vs Garner a classic cricketing dilemma. Fire and glamour vs consistency and efficiency. Holding took more daddy hauls whereas Garner had the better average. Interested to hear what people who saw both think. Garner's bounce probably a good enough counter to Holding's pace.

 

[Red]

I absolutely love Joel Garner, I can vaguely remember watching him as a kid.

In a school yard draft setting you'd wanna select him before your opposing captain, just so you don't have to deal with him. One of my all time faves, no doubt.

He is, without a doubt in my eyes, the greatest ODI bowler of all time. "No one hit Joel".

 

[stephen]

All of these guys are ATG bowlers and I rate them in the following order.

Marshall
Ambrose
Garner
Holding
Bishop
Roberts
Walsh
Croft

 

[stephen]

After some of the tripe written in the batsman countdown thread I was expecting someone to say that the West Indies fast bowlers of the mid 70’s to mid 80’s are overrated because they didn’t have to bowl to their own batting line up.

One only needed to watch them bowl to see their quality. But even statistically, add 15% to any of their averages and they're still at ATG level.

 

[the big bambino]

Marshall. Don’t agree with the assumption in the OP

 

[Line and Length]

I rate Andy Roberts very highly.

 

[Red]

Marshall. Don’t agree with the assumption in the OP

Stake your claim then, who's the best?

 

[Red]

All of these guys are ATG bowlers and I rate them in the following order.

Marshall
Ambrose
Garner
Holding
Bishop
Roberts
Walsh
Croft

It's amazing to think all these guys came thru in the 70s and 80s and into the 90s, virtually overlapping in to one long era. Then there were guys like Patterson and the Benjamins and Sylvester Clarke and Wayne Daniel who were pretty handy (or better than pretty handy) waiting in the wings or playing support roles from time to time.

 

[the big bambino]

Stake your claim then, who's the best?

Can only be Ambrose.

 

[mr_mister]

Out of the two tiers of non ATGs but still staple quicks from the 80s and 90s, whats the best way to rank firstly Patterson, Winston and Kenny Benjamin

And then ranking the superior tier of Croft, Clarke and Bishop? And would anyone argue over whether these tiers are correct

 

[stephen]

Out of the two tiers of non ATGs but still staple quicks from the 80s and 90s, whats the best way to rank firstly Patterson, Winston and Kenny Benjamin

And then ranking the superior tier of Croft, Clarke and Bishop? And would anyone argue over whether these tiers are correct

I feel like Bishop belongs in the very top tier. He was better than Walsh for mine. Was massively influential in the 92/93 series win over Australia (though not as much as 7/1 Curtley).

 

[stephen]

My father believes Ambrose to have been the best, but Garner was his favourite.

 

[honestbharani]

Ambrose, then Garner.

 

[Engle]

As good as Garner was, it is Holding who will capture and captivate a conversation of fast bowling. His 14 wkts vs England on a dead track was the greatest display of Test fast bowling, NTM THAT over to Boycott which are the stuff of legends.

More than any other discipline, it is fast bowling that goes beyond stats/craft and into the realm of intimidation, psychological shock and shudder.

' Whispering Death' over ' Big Bird' for me

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

That's a good selection. I have always heard about that 14 wickets performance. Never seen it.

 

[Migara]

Garner vs Holding is much like discussing Tendulkar vs Lara. Garner and Tendulkar were extremely consistent, while Lara and Holding gave you flashes of brilliance, with some ordinary performances. Depends on what do you like more.

 

[Line and Length]

While not in the same league of many of those named, Sylvester Clarke should be mentioned when discussing West Indian fast bowlers. I note that SSC1 and tony p both put his name forward while king kallis went one further and included him in his top 10.

Wikipedia describes his Test career thus:

"The right-armer, having developed an extremely fearsome bouncer, soon became one of the most respected bowlers in the West Indies and, following the defection of many of the West Indian team to World Series Cricket, Clarke made his full Test debut at Bourda Cricket Ground in Georgetown, Guyana against the touring Australian team on 31 March 1978. Clarke took 6/141 in a convincing debut, before injuring an ankle which kept him out of the rest of the series.

Nicknamed "Silvers", Clarke was subsequently selected for the West Indies' tour of India in 1978–79, taking 21 wickets at 33.85, including his Test best figures of 5/126 in the 2nd Test at M. Chinnaswamy Stadium, Bangalore. He then toured Pakistan in 1980–81 where he took 14 Test wickets at 17.28 before gaining his first taste of controversy. During the 4th Test at Multan, Clarke was pelted with oranges and stones by spectators whilst fielding on the boundary. Enraged, he responded by picking up a nearby brick and hurling it into the crowd, badly injuring a spectator who later required emergency surgery. A near riot was averted only when Clarke's teammate Alvin Kallicharan got down on bended knee to apologise to the crowd. Reflecting wryly on the incident many years later, Phil Edmonds wrote that the brick "probably swung in late and viciously before hitting him on the head,".

Clarke was subsequently suspended for three matches from the team for his actions. Having already been selected ahead of Michael Holding to face Ian Botham's England side, Clarke was now forced to drop out of the squad.

Returning from suspension, Clarke found himself out of favour with the selectors and unable to break back into an already extremely strong West Indian bowling line-up boasting such talents as Joel Garner, Michael Holding, Malcolm Marshall and Colin Croft. He played only one more Test, against Australia at the Sydney Cricket Ground in January 1982."

Clarke retired with a first class record of 942 wickets @ 19.5 and 42 Test wickets @ 27.8 - not to be sneezed at!

 

[Magrat Garlick]

L + :L trying to usurp fertang as the forum's premier Sylvers fan, is it

 

[Engle]

Spare a thought for Tony Gray, 22 Test wkts @17 - 14 in the subcontinent where he matched Marshall
44 ODI wkts @19