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Which side has the 2nd best bowling attack behind Australia

PY

International Coach
Top_Cat said:
I'm always optimistic that the next great medium-swing bowler is only around the corner. :)
When was the last one do you reckon?

You talking medium-fast or plain wobblers medium ie Ian Harvey?

I would love to see one too who didn't get tapped all over just because he wasn't quick. Would have to have an awesome cricketing brain though.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
FaaipDeOiad said:
Compared to every other country in the world, there is a wealth of backups. With players like Bracken, Bichel, Lewis, Nicholson, Clarke, Tait etc hanging around in domestic cricket and performing consistently, what other nation has stronger back-up bowlers competing for the test spots?
How do you know they're excellent?

There's probably just as many consistent bowlers in English County Cricket.
 

badgerhair

U19 Vice-Captain
marc71178 said:
How do you know they're excellent?

There's probably just as many consistent bowlers in English County Cricket.
I know Tait's excellent because he's performed brilliantly in county cricket. In his two matches for Durham last year he returned 12-0-113-0 and 6-0-63-0. How can you possibly doubt the quality of a bowler who takes no wickets and goes for ten an over when opening the bowling in first-class cricket? Even the mighty Agacooker can't compete with that.

Cheers,

Mike
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
badgerhair said:
I know Tait's excellent because he's performed brilliantly in county cricket. In his two matches for Durham last year he returned 12-0-113-0 and 6-0-63-0. How can you possibly doubt the quality of a bowler who takes no wickets and goes for ten an over when opening the bowling in first-class cricket? Even the mighty Agacooker can't compete with that.

Cheers,

Mike
Yes, and these 18 overs where he could barely land the ball on the pitch are clearly a far better representation of his ability as a bowler than his 65 wickets @ 20 with a strike rate of 35 in 10 matches he got in the most recent pura cup season, playing half his matches on the flat Adelaide pitch, in the highest standard domestic competition in the world.
 

badgerhair

U19 Vice-Captain
FaaipDeOiad said:
Yes, and these 18 overs where he could barely land the ball on the pitch are clearly a far better representation of his ability as a bowler than his 65 wickets @ 20 with a strike rate of 35 in 10 matches he got in the most recent pura cup season, playing half his matches on the flat Adelaide pitch,
So far, so good.

in the highest standard domestic competition in the world.
However, this is an assumption without supporting evidence. There is very little reason to suppose that the standard of Pura Cup cricket, with its complete reliance on Australian players, is now (as opposed to 10-15 years ago) markedly better than the standard of county cricket, which has the whole world as its catchment area. We get a lot more of Shane Warne playing in our domestic competition than you do in yours, for instance.

The statistics give no backing for the contention that the Pura Cup is of a significantly higher standard, as the number of Australian players who return better figures in county cricket than they do at home is very similar to the number of Australian players whose figures in county cricket are worse than they are back home. In general, the differences can usually be traced to someone's technique being a bit better adapted to softer or harder wickets.

You also quoted the example of Matt Nicholson, who two or three years ago spent a season being only moderately successful for my club Todmorden in the Lancashire League, which is only high-class club cricket. I watched him several times and thought he might be useful for some of the weaker counties, but could quite understand why the one Test he played as an emergency replacement was extremely likely to be his last.

I'm not suggesting that English domestic cricket is fantastic and much better than Australian. I'm only pointing out that there is no very good reason to suggest that it is much worse and that evidence from the one competition is just as likely to be valid as evidence from the other.

Cheers,

Mike
 

superkingdave

Hall of Fame Member
Top_Cat said:
As for Chris Tremlett, personally he reminds me very much of a young Martin Bicknell but slower and although having a good time of it at FC level, against Test batsmen, he might struggle just for lack of raw pace. That said, he does look like a very decent bowler with tons of potential and I'm always optimistic that the next great medium-swing bowler is only around the corner. :)
He does bowl up and around 85mph though, and with his height he gets a lot of bounce, i don't think he's the medium-swing bowler you're looking for.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
superkingdave said:
He does bowl up and around 85mph though, and with his height he gets a lot of bounce, i don't think he's the medium-swing bowler you're looking for.
Yeah, I agree there. Tremlett is a fair bit sharper than Bicknell ever was. They do have a similar stock delivery tho, just short of a length that can climb & move.

I think Jon Lewis is more of a Bicknell bowl-a-like. Similar pace, Lewis occasionally touches 80mph but it's quite a rare occurrence and both can get good movement on seamers. Lewis is slightly skiddier, which may be 'cos he's that bit shorter. Having said that, I saw him listed as 6' 3" this week, which is at least two inches more than I'd have guessed.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
superkingdave said:
sh*t haircut aswell, thinks he's Jonathan Creek
Ah, Alan Davies. Right behind Osama Bin Laden in the "People I'm embarrassed to support the same football team as" list. :D
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
He does bowl up and around 85mph though, and with his height he gets a lot of bounce, i don't think he's the medium-swing bowler you're looking for.
Agree with the bounce but in the footage I've seen, he didn't look terribly quick. Must be an optical illusion brought on by that big loping action of his.

Yeah, I agree there. Tremlett is a fair bit sharper than Bicknell ever was.
Really? I checked out some footage I have of Bicknell in 1990 playing against Australia and although he was very similar to Tremlett in terms of height, line, length, etc., he looked quite nippy, around your 135km/h mark, possibly quicker. Again, with no speed camera, it might all just be an optical illusion.

The statistics give no backing for the contention that the Pura Cup is of a significantly higher standard, as the number of Australian players who return better figures in county cricket than they do at home is very similar to the number of Australian players whose figures in county cricket are worse than they are back home. In general, the differences can usually be traced to someone's technique being a bit better adapted to softer or harder wickets.
Although agreeing with just about everything you said, I think the attitude of Aussie players being of a higher standard can also be traced back to how many overseas players fail to succeed here in Australia. You're right in that the number of Aussies who succeed in England is similar to those who don't but I've had a bit of a think and I can't think of the last overseas player who succeeded here in domestic cricket, certainly not being in the top 10 run scorers or wicket-takers. In fact, quite a few overseas cricketers play grade cricket and stay there. This can also be explained; generally state selectors, when faced with picking a talented overseas player vs a young talented local player will generally play the local lad. Australia's attitude to foreign players is generally pretty poor.
 

badgerhair

U19 Vice-Captain
Top_Cat said:
Although agreeing with just about everything you said, I think the attitude of Aussie players being of a higher standard can also be traced back to how many overseas players fail to succeed here in Australia. You're right in that the number of Aussies who succeed in England is similar to those who don't but I've had a bit of a think and I can't think of the last overseas player who succeeded here in domestic cricket, certainly not being in the top 10 run scorers or wicket-takers. In fact, quite a few overseas cricketers play grade cricket and stay there. This can also be explained; generally state selectors, when faced with picking a talented overseas player vs a young talented local player will generally play the local lad. Australia's attitude to foreign players is generally pretty poor.
I would have thought that would have a great deal to do with the quality of overseas player you get. Your main catchment is going to be the English, as most other places have got their own domestic season going on, and the only ones who will bother to come over for the tiny amounts of money on offer are young pros looking to broaden their cricket education: the established pro with a mortgage to pay will want something more lucrative over the winter.

English county clubs, on the other hand, are able to offer substantial salaries and can therefore choose from the range of established f-c players. They don't hire aspiring young Australian players who are hoping to cement their place in their State side next season - those guys go to the English leagues and play as overseas pros in club cricket, ie nearer the equivalent level to grade cricket. I can't say I particularly enjoy seeing these decent county pros, as most of them turn out to be, because it takes some of the fun out of it not to wonder whether you're seeing a future England player, but needs must and all that.

15 years ago, Sheffield Shield cricket was certainly of a higher standard than anywhere else. But the Australian Test players don't play domestic cricket any more, just as the English ones hardly do, but while English cricket imports an array of foreign Test players to top up the quality, Australia only fills from below. And can only fill from below because all the worthwhile foreigners are otherwise engaged..

I can't see how it would benefit Australian cricket for State sides to hire jobbing English pros - with only six sides it really would restrict opportunities without the bums-on-seats benefit which hiring Warne, Murali or Shoaib Akhtar brings to have Martin Saggers and Ian Ward occupying places in Victoria's side.

And the other reason for the narrowing of the gap is that English county cricket has got more competitive. There was a fear, although some would call it a hope, at the time we brought in two-divisional cricket that it would concentrate all the good players at a few top clubs, and that we would end up with only Division One being worthwhile, which would lead to the extinction of the weaker clubs as the sponsors all deserted to cricket's de facto premiership. That hasn't happened, but the desire for winning the glory of promotion and avoiding the stigma of relegation has had the desired effect of making counties play properly all the way through until late August at least.

And one of the reasons it hasn't happened is that lowly clubs can do a great deal to even up the odds, as a rather unsuccessful Hampshire did a couple of years ago when they signed Warne. Which is turning out to be a fantastically successful coup.

I'm really pleased to see what Warne's doing at Hampshire: long-term commitment, working really hard with the whole squad, really being part of the club. That's the good old-fashioned way, like we had at Middlesex with Wayne Daniel and then Desi Haynes, which benefits everybody.

Cheers,

Mike
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
And the other reason for the narrowing of the gap is that English county cricket has got more competitive. There was a fear, although some would call it a hope, at the time we brought in two-divisional cricket that it would concentrate all the good players at a few top clubs, and that we would end up with only Division One being worthwhile, which would lead to the extinction of the weaker clubs as the sponsors all deserted to cricket's de facto premiership. That hasn't happened, but the desire for winning the glory of promotion and avoiding the stigma of relegation has had the desired effect of making counties play properly all the way through until late August at least.

And one of the reasons it hasn't happened is that lowly clubs can do a great deal to even up the odds, as a rather unsuccessful Hampshire did a couple of years ago when they signed Warne. Which is turning out to be a fantastically successful coup.
Yep, completely agree. I remember the fears at the time but I knew they wouldn't materialise with a little effort. Splitting up the championship needed to occur and it was done right. I don't think it's a co-incidence that the institution of an academy and this change have occurred at a similar time to England's vastly increased competitiveness.

I'm really pleased to see what Warne's doing at Hampshire: long-term commitment, working really hard with the whole squad, really being part of the club. That's the good old-fashioned way, like we had at Middlesex with Wayne Daniel and then Desi Haynes, which benefits everybody.
Yeah good on Warnie for doing that. As far as I understand, Jamie Cox and Darren Lehmann have done similar things in the past for their clubs as captains. It's great to see. I'm one of the seemingly few Aussies who likes to see a competitive English side. :)

And let's face it, the quality of players currently being turned out is great; aside from the current side, you have Bell, Pieterson and others in the wings for batting as well as some outstanding pace bowling prospects. If your system manages to turn up a really decent leggie, well we could have a new number 1 Test side in a few years. :)
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
PY said:
When was the last one do you reckon?

You talking medium-fast or plain wobblers medium ie Ian Harvey?

I would love to see one too who didn't get tapped all over just because he wasn't quick. Would have to have an awesome cricketing brain though.
Damien Fleming.
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
Top_Cat said:
Although agreeing with just about everything you said, I think the attitude of Aussie players being of a higher standard can also be traced back to how many overseas players fail to succeed here in Australia. You're right in that the number of Aussies who succeed in England is similar to those who don't but I've had a bit of a think and I can't think of the last overseas player who succeeded here in domestic cricket, certainly not being in the top 10 run scorers or wicket-takers. In fact, quite a few overseas cricketers play grade cricket and stay there. This can also be explained; generally state selectors, when faced with picking a talented overseas player vs a young talented local player will generally play the local lad. Australia's attitude to foreign players is generally pretty poor.
Case in point: Paul Collingwood winning the Ryder Medal for the best player in Melbourne Grade Cricket, yet not getting a game for Victoria.

And on grade cricket, does Vikram Solanki's ordinary grade season in Melbourne need to be pointed out?? You can't highlight someone playing at a low level and not dominating, and therefore conclude that they must be no good. All chances are that Vikram came over here for a booze-fest, like most Aussies go over to England for.

And RE: which competition is stronger, I guess its almost a personal choice. Do you see strength in a competition as which team's worst players are better, or whether their best players are better.

In Australia, with only 66 guys playing FC cricket (effectively), the last few guys picked for each team should be of a better standard, one would hazard a guess, than those in the English FC system. However, with overseas imports, numbers 1-10 picked across the board in English FC will be of a better standard than in Australia.
 
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aussie

Hall of Fame Member
badgerhair said:
I know Tait's excellent because he's performed brilliantly in county cricket. In his two matches for Durham last year he returned 12-0-113-0 and 6-0-63-0. How can you possibly doubt the quality of a bowler who takes no wickets and goes for ten an over when opening the bowling in first-class cricket? Even the mighty Agacooker can't compete with that.

Cheers,

Mike
well that was tait's first even stint over here, but look at his performance in the pura cup last year which is the thoughest domestic competition in the world.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
marc71178 said:
How do you know they're excellent?

There's probably just as many consistent bowlers in English County Cricket.
they are excellent in domestic cricket, plus i reckon Bracken, Bichel, Lewis, Clarke & Nicholas are a better than much of the bowlers over here in the county circuit.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Top_Cat said:
As for Chris Tremlett, personally he reminds me very much of a young Martin Bicknell but slower and although having a good time of it at FC level, against Test batsmen, he might struggle just for lack of raw pace. That said, he does look like a very decent bowler with tons of potential and I'm always optimistic that the next great medium-swing bowler is only around the corner. :)
nah Top Cat, Tremlett has got fair pace, has was mentioned before Lewis is a more Bicknell look a like
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Top_Cat said:
Yep, completely agree. I remember the fears at the time but I knew they wouldn't materialise with a little effort. Splitting up the championship needed to occur and it was done right. I don't think it's a co-incidence that the institution of an academy and this change have occurred at a similar time to England's vastly increased competitiveness.
That and of course Central Contracts.
 

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