What is your ranking of all Country's ATG XIs?

[CricAddict]

My usual theory on this is that it is easier for a test opener to slide down the order and bat at other positions, than it is for a guy in the MO or lower to go up and open the innings.

Yes I think that is a consensus here. Opening requires a bit more adjustments.

 

[Jarquis]

Be interested to know how the records of blokes who have done a bit of both stack up.

Root far more accomplished in the middle order but that’s as much to do with his development, maturity and experience than batting position

 

[honestbharani]

Be interested to know how the records of blokes who have done a bit of both stack up.

Root far more accomplished in the middle order but that’s as much to do with his development, maturity and experience than batting position

Same can be said for Shastri who found far more success opening.

 

[subshakerz]

I think his point is well understood, but for someone of the caliber of Hutton it would seem to me that they were more than good enough to do well in whatever position they batted in.

Just thinking in numbers - exactly what's going to happen if Hutton bats at 3 instead of 1 or 2 - it's not like he doesn't know how to bat in the 15th over of the innings and suddenly ends up being a Chris Martin, maayybe we assume that the unfamiliarity still takes some gloss out of his batting - but how much is that really gonna take away from his run scoring - (2%? , 5%?) Still seems better than Joe Root. His average would still be higher than root even if the number was 10%. I just don't really see him being 15-20% worse - which would be required for him to end up firmly behind Root.

Even within this discussion - it's generally accepted that opening is harder than the other positions - so maybe that dip would be higher if we got the middle order batsman to open or an opener might not know how to bat very well with the tail and so moving him to say #6 might be a tad too much, but batting at #3 instead of opening just doesn't seem like it's either much tougher or much of a change to me. Also, FTR I will also claim that moving from #3/#4 to opening isn't that much of a change either although it's perhaps more troublesome compared to the reverse.

To me, switching a batting position is fine as long as it is 1 place, maybe 2 places.

So for an opener like Hutton to go to no.3 is ok.

So for a regular no.3 like Ponting or Dravid to open is not a big deal.

For a no.3 like Viv to move to no.4 to make place for Bradman or for no.4 like Tendulkar to go to a no.5 in an ATG XI is fine.

 

[ZK$]

1. Australia
Don Bradman
Steve Smith
Ricky Ponting
Greg Chappell
Allan Border
Steve Waugh
Adam Gilchrist
Shane Warne
Pat Cummins
Dennis Lillee
Glenn Mcgrath

2. West Indies
Viv Richards
George Headley
Brian Lara
Everton Weekes
Clyde Walcott
Garry Sobers
Jeff Dujon
Malcolm Marshall
Michael Holding
Joel Garner
Curtly Ambrose

3. South Africa
Barry Richards
Graeme Smith
Jacques Kallis
Graeme Pollock
Dudley Nourse
AB de Villiers
John Waite
Hugh Tayfield
Dale Steyn
Kagiso Rabada
Allan Donald

4. England
Jack Hobbs
Herbert Sutcliffe
Len Hutton
Wally Hammond
Ken Barrington
Joe Root
Alan Knott
Jim Laker
Fred Trueman
James Anderson
Sydney Barnes

5. Pakistan
Saeed Anwar
Hanif Mohammad
Younis Khan
Javed Miandad
Inzamam up Haq
Mohammad Rizwan
Mushtaq Mohammad
Imran Khan
Wasim Akram
Waqar Younis
Saqlain Mushtaq

6. India
Sunil Gavaskar
Virender Sehwag
Rahul Dravid
Sachin Tendulkar
Virat Kohli
Rishabh Pant
Kapil Dev
Ravichandran Ashwin
Anil Kumble
Mohammad Shami
Jasprit Bumrah

 

[TheJediBrah]

Slight tangent, Aus ATG "out of position XI":

Waugh
Smith
Border
Gilchrist
Hayden
Bradman
Simpson
Miller
McGrath
Warne
Lindwall

 

[Burgey]

It's all relative, and I feel like you've kind of missed the point. If you're talking about a batsman of "similar stature" then the situation would never arise.

We're talking about playing batsmen that are clearly superior out of position because the alternatives in that position are inferior.

That doesn’t concern me though because everyone knows all Australians are superior.

 

[BazBall21]

Australia All Time XI B Team

Hayden/Lawry
Ponsford
Ponting
McCabe
Border
Waugh
Tallon
Davidson
Cummins
O’Reilly
Spofforth

 

[Himannv]

Slight tangent, Aus ATG "out of position XI":

Waugh
Smith
Border
Gilchrist
Hayden
Bradman
Simpson
Miller
McGrath
Warne
Lindwall

You're not allowed to open with two Steves.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Slight tangent, Aus ATG "out of position XI":

Waugh
Smith
Border
Gilchrist
Hayden
Bradman
Simpson
Miller
McGrath
Warne
Lindwall

Warne would bat 10 in that lineup anyway with Lindwall at 9, and Miller Gilchrist at 7/8 or vv. That's insane batting strength. I'd probably pick Lillee and G Chappell and replace Waugh, and one of Border or Miller

 

[bagapath]

If you look back through you'd be surprised how often batting position ends up being a matter of circumstance rather than someone being only suited to bat in a particular position

I don't agree with this at all. it is very wrong in my opinion.

I think we have expressed ourselves and heard the others also fully. that is the max we could do on such matters.

now I feel guilty for being partly responsible for this post http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/thr...ng-of-all-countrys-atg-xis.88158/post-4811976 which is full of horrors.

I should have washed my eyes after seeing Hutton at 3 moved on. this is now out of control.

 

[Coronis]

Like I said, isn’t it just enough to accept we have different opinions on this issue and move on? If its such a big deal put some qualifier at the beginning of a post with an XI..

Slight tangent, Aus ATG "out of position XI":

Waugh
Smith
Border
Gilchrist
Hayden
Bradman
Simpson
Miller
McGrath
Warne
Lindwall

Just love imagining, 4 down, you think you’re doing pretty well as the bowlers then out walks the Don and ****s you right over.

 

[shortpitched713]

While I often show my age, you are revealing your youth. I have had the pleasure of watching both Hutton and Barrington and readily rank them as ATGs. Your suggestion to have a starting point of 1969 is, quite frankly, ridiculous. How did you come up with that date? Why not 1972 so we are looking at the last 50 years if you want to focus on 'modern' players.

Of course you're right, those who have seen have seen and know the quality, and of course their numbers don't lie. I personally always feel a bit fraudulent referencing them. However the fact that the conditions are different then to now can not be overlooked. I can't say for certain how modern players would have done then, nor can I say how the older ones would do now. But why is it relevant to produce these long ago legends for England in conversations, when other countries are solely or almost exclusively talking about players from more transferable eras?

Also, I could make some childish jokes as to when I chose that number, but really it's just the fact that it includes very important players. All 4 of the great all-rounders of the era debuted 1970 or later, as well as the batting geniuses of Gavaskar and Richards. That's the sole reason. You could make a case to exclude those who made their name in the 70s (the mentioned players all had important periods of success in the 80s as well), because to me the 70s was a "transition" period with massive changes made going into the definitely fully professional / commercialized era of the 80s. However, simply for the sake of including these legends I can't pick a debut cut-off for after that time.

 

[Coronis]

Would love to see some more recent players on a proper sticky.

 

[Gob]

Am sure I can choose an Aussie team that looks like

DG Bradman
S Smith
RT Ponting
GC Chappell
AR Border
SR Waugh
AC Gilchrist +

And this side will score 400+ Runs 8 out of 10 times

But I won’t select such a team….

SPD Smith

 

[TheJediBrah]

I don't agree with this at all. it is very wrong in my opinion.

It's definitely not wrong, nor is it a matter of opinion. It's a fact.

But I respect you sticking to your principles and the logic behind only picking players in the position they played in is sound

 

[Red]

I always felt Hussey was a better batsman than Hayden and Langer, and if he’d played his entire career as an opener (he should’ve also debuted a few years before he did) he’d be in Aus ATG XI as an opener easily

 

[Gob]

I always felt Hussey was a better batsman than Hayden and Langer, and if he’d played his entire career as an opener (he should’ve also debuted a few years before he did) he’d be in Aus ATG XI as an opener easily

His first-class record was massively bolstered by county cricket wasn't it? I read reading somewhere that he had a moderate record in the shield for WA. Most Aust cricketers filled their boots in county cricket at that time

 

[trundler]

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/qea/engine/records/batting/most_runs_career.html?id=114;team=653;type=trophy

Hussey averaged 41 for WA apparently. Look at who's #1.

 

[Gob]

Less than shaun marsh itstl