What is your ranking of all Country's ATG XIs?

[Migara]

The main point of difference between India and Pakistan in SC will be Sehwag, he can murder any type of bowling on these pitches and open up avenues for wins in matches which would have been draws otherwise.

When Asif is around Shewag is a non factor. It is not like that Imran and Wasim couldn't knock him over as well.

 

[Bolo.]

I did have Graeme Pollock in mind for that as the main man batting wise, but yeah understand your point. They have the option of batting very deep due to loads of ARs and have all bases covered. But yeah the 1970-1990 era works against them. Affects the CV of Richards, Pollock and Procter and potentially robbed the likes of Rice and Vincent. Their talent production through history has been amazing.

I reckon Rice would have been found out in test cricket. There are just so many FM ARs that destroy FC and become mediocre at test level.

VDB is kinda the reverse. His skillset (lift, channel and outswing) never fails at test level. Considering how massively far he is ahead of whoever is the second best RSA domestic bowler from the last century or so, and his tools, there's a decent chance he would have ended up an ATG.

 

[Migara]

The exercise is ridiculous. Teams who have more players to play from due to starting test cricket early will be automatically will produce best sides.

 

[Jayro]

As you rightly pointed out Aus. ahead all because of one man who can never be matched and is like 2 atg players combined in his self, rest can all be very debatable between SA, WI and possibly England for which you can consume 100 pages without much of a verdict.

 

[srbhkshk]

When Asif is around Shewag is a non factor. It is not like that Imran and Wasim couldn't knock him over as well.

?? and it's not like Sehwag couldn't tonk the stuffing out of them on his day.

Asif is never gonna make the first pakistan XI (or any XI for that matter if there's justice in the world) so it doesn't matter how he does against Sehwag. (Not that him getting Sehwag out a grand total of once in tests and once in ODIs actually tells anything anyway.)

 

[BazBall21]

I reckon Rice would have been found out in test cricket. There are just so many FM ARs that destroy FC and become mediocre at test level.

VDB is kinda the reverse. His skillset (lift, channel and outswing) never fails at test level. Considering how massively far he is ahead of whoever is the second best RSA domestic bowler from the last century or so, and his tools, there's a decent chance he would have ended up an ATG.

What a bowler VDB was.

 

[trundler]

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Stats of away spinners during Gibbs's career. 2 blokes took 2-3 wickets per game at 27 but everyone else averages north of 30. Even guys like Trueman, Statham, Lindwall etc didn't cover themselves in glory in WI. All did ok or worse in the Caribbean. Of course, some bowlers had one good series there but it really seems like an awful place for bowlers. Then throw in the fact that cricket was so atrociously attritional then that it's a surprise we made it through the 60s. After the Port of Spain declaration, Sobers said what prompted him to declare was that England hadn't managed to surpass 40 runs an hour at any point in the tour previously. That's 240 runs a day. Accounting for the over rates, that's barely ~2 runs an over. These are not circumstances conducive to spin bowling. This is also another dumb example of faulting a player for having a decent sized career because after a decade and 46 tests he had 200 wickets at 26 and we'd have him over Tayfield and Kumble without a doubt.

 

[Migara]

?? and it's not like Sehwag couldn't tonk the stuffing out of them on his day.

Asif is never gonna make the first pakistan XI (or any XI for that matter if there's justice in the world) so it doesn't matter how he does against Sehwag. (Not that him getting Sehwag out a grand total of once in tests and once in ODIs actually tells anything anyway.)

If Shewag is the biggest threat against a side, then it makes sense to include a bowler who can knock him over. It's not like Asif is useless too.

 

[Slifer]

Australia
WI/RSA/Eng (toss up)
Pak
Ind
NZ
SL
Zim
Ban

 

[Slifer]

The exercise is ridiculous. Teams who have more players to play from due to starting test cricket early will be automatically will produce best sides.

Fair point. Maybe rank the teams since 1980. Why 1980? That's around the time imo, that cricket really took off with ODIs, the world cups, wsc, helmets etc.

 

[CricAddict]

People are ranking Pak higher than India mainly due to Imran Khan and Wasim Akram which is fair enough since they are genuine atgs who get into overall first XI.

But India I think is equal or better in all the other 9 spots.

 

[BazBall21]

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Stats of away spinners during Gibbs's career. 2 blokes took 2-3 wickets per game at 27 but everyone else averages north of 30. Even guys like Trueman, Statham, Lindwall etc didn't cover themselves in glory in WI. All did ok or worse in the Caribbean. Of course, some bowlers had one good series there but it really seems like an awful place for bowlers. Then throw in the fact that cricket was so atrociously attritional then that it's a surprise we made it through the 60s. After the Port of Spain declaration, Sobers said what prompted him to declare was that England hadn't managed to surpass 40 runs an hour at any point in the tour previously. That's 240 runs a day. Accounting for the over rates, that's barely ~2 runs an over. These are not circumstances conducive to spin bowling. This is also another dumb example of faulting a player for having a decent sized career because after a decade and 46 tests he had 200 wickets at 26 and we'd have him over Tayfield and Kumble without a doubt.

Agree. Gibbs is underrated.

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

People are ranking Pak higher than India mainly due to Imran Khan and Wasim Akram which is fair enough since they are genuine atgs who get into overall first XI.

But India I think is equal or better in all the other 9 spots.

I don't think the 3rd best Indian quick really compares to Waqar. At least until Bumrah's career is more complete, Pakistan has (at least) 3 quicks better than the best Indian quick. That's a significant difference and why people are rating the teams the way round they are.

Much less significantly, whoever is batting 5 for Pakistan is probably ahead of Kohli too.

 

[CricAddict]

I don't think the 3rd best Indian quick really compares to Waqar. At least until Bumrah's career is more complete, Pakistan has (at least) 3 quicks better than the best Indian quick. That's a significant difference and why people are rating the teams the way round they are.

Much less significantly, whoever is batting 5 for Pakistan is probably ahead of Kohli too.

I was comparing Bumrah and Waqar as equals. Yes if we are looking Shami and Waqar, Waqar definitely beats him easily. Kohli vs Pak's 5th batsman is a close contest.

But like I said earlier, the awesome pace attack is quite fairly swaying it to Pakistan.

 

[Coronis]

I reckon Rice would have been found out in test cricket. There are just so many FM ARs that destroy FC and become mediocre at test level.

VDB is kinda the reverse. His skillset (lift, channel and outswing) never fails at test level. Considering how massively far he is ahead of whoever is the second best RSA domestic bowler from the last century or so, and his tools, there's a decent chance he would have ended up an ATG.

Not denying that Vince was a potential ATG, no doubt he was. But lets be honest that statement applies to all types of players, not just fast-medium all rounders, countless other bowlers and batsmen have dominated their respective first class competitions and been completely meh at an international level. Not really fair to single out Rice or FM all rounders for that.

I was comparing Bumrah and Waqar as equals.

I mean c’mon, blokes played 30 tests, and just his 4 tests vs SL and WI reduce his average by 3. No doubt he’s a great talent, but that’s just insulting Waqar a bit, no?

 

[Bolo.]

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Stats of away spinners during Gibbs's career. 2 blokes took 2-3 wickets per game at 27 but everyone else averages north of 30. Even guys like Trueman, Statham, Lindwall etc didn't cover themselves in glory in WI. All did ok or worse in the Caribbean. Of course, some bowlers had one good series there but it really seems like an awful place for bowlers. Then throw in the fact that cricket was so atrociously attritional then that it's a surprise we made it through the 60s. After the Port of Spain declaration, Sobers said what prompted him to declare was that England hadn't managed to surpass 40 runs an hour at any point in the tour previously. That's 240 runs a day. Accounting for the over rates, that's barely ~2 runs an over. These are not circumstances conducive to spin bowling. This is also another dumb example of faulting a player for having a decent sized career because after a decade and 46 tests he had 200 wickets at 26 and we'd have him over Tayfield and Kumble without a doubt.

Without a doubt is a real big call. Tayfield played for more than a decade, also took his wickets @26, with a higher WPM than what you are picking as GIbbs' peak, without the stats boost that Gibbs got from bowling in the SC, and was a handly bat while Gibbs was a total number 11. Tayfields worst average in the (admittedly few) countries he played in was 28 in Aus, where he took 6wpm. Gibbs was okay or worse in several countries.

Gibbs is very underrated, but claiming he well ahead of Tayfield is going too far in the other direction. Factoring the batting in, I dont see how you could consider Gibbs better 'without a doubt'

 

[Bolo.]

Not denying that Vince was a potential ATG, no doubt he was. But lets be honest that statement applies to all types of players, not just fast-medium all rounders, countless other bowlers and batsmen have dominated their respective first class competitions and been completely meh at an international level. Not really fair to single out Rice or FM all rounders for that.

VDBs skillset always works at test level. Have you ever seen a ridiculously accurate giant who can move the ball fail? The best RSA domestic quicks have always succeeded at test level (even the one that we were all expecting to fail cos of his skillset... Philander), and he was better than any of them by a stupid degree in domestic. Of any player who has never played tests, he is the closest thing to a lock as a good test player, and it wouldn't be particularly surprising if he ended up as one of the top 15ish bowlers.

FM ARs consistently get found out at test level. There are a bunch in RSA historically who crush domestic and cant make the move up... some of them fail, and some of them don't even get the chance to fail, cos the selectors are confident enough in their failure to not give them a game. Rice is better than them... im fairly sure he would have been a pretty good test player, and maybe better, but i doubt he would have been anywhere near contention for.an RSA AT berth. TBH, i may be a little biased against Rice cos I only remember his bowling when he was old enough to be solidly mediocre, but the dude took something like 2wpm... I reckon his average flatters him more than a little.

 

[TheJediBrah]

If Shewag is the biggest threat against a side, then it makes sense to include a bowler who can knock him over. It's not like Asif is useless too.

If it's an Asian road then Sehwag would smack Asif around

If it's a green-ish wicket with significant sideways movement then Sehwag's going to get p0wned by any half decent seam bowler anyway so Asif is excessive

 

[subshakerz]

Except England

If it's an Asian road then Sehwag would smack Asif around

If it's a green-ish wicket with significant sideways movement then Sehwag's going to get p0wned by any half decent seam bowler anyway so Asif is excessive

The thing is even on Indian wickets, Sehwag was 50/50 against great pacers.

In 2008 against Steyn he murdered him on a flat deck in the first test and then Steyn got him cheaply in the next two tests on more sporting wickets.

In 2004, Sehwag scored that terrific 155 against Australia but McGrath took his wicket four times cheaply in four tests.

Similar thing happened when he faced Asif in Pakistan in 2006 and Shoaib in 2004.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Asif should also be discounted from selection regardless