What is your ALL TIME WORLD XI TEAM for tests?

[NUFAN]

Take Allan Steel for example:

Steel averages more with the bat than Grace
Steel averages better with the ball than Grace
Steel scores his 100s at a better per Test rate than Grace
Steel takes more wickets per match than Grace

So why does a better performed batsman and bowler who made more of an impact not belong in the discussion? IMO Allan Steel belongs in the discussion for England's finest all-rounder

 

[Hurricane]

My understanding is that pitches back then sucked. It may be down to the rub of the green that he didn't perform well at test level as opposed to it being at a higher standard. And if that theory is correct we are correct to take a look at his FC record as well as his test record. In one story I heard he once successfully kept out three "shooters" in a row in some match, at which point the crowd stood and gave him a standing ovation. I have faced a shooter in a game once played on some matting over just normal grass. It was impossible to keep out and I was out plumb lbw. Can you imagine a test match today where the pitch was so poor that there were shooters. Wouldn't happen.

Look I don't mind your argument at all actually NUFAN and I think you have advanced a good case and have presented it well.

Thanks for helping the discussion in a good natured fashion.

 

[Jassy]

1)Gavaskar
2)Hutton
3)Sir DB
4)Tendulkar
5)Viv Richards
6)Ponting
7)Gilchrist
8)Keith Miller
9)Warne
10)Malcolm Marshall
11)McGrath

Had to think a lot about Sobers vs Ponting, but Ponting is a better batsman and fielder. A 5th bowler is unnecessary with 4 ATG bowlers but Viv and Tendulkar can chip in with a few overs if needed.

Sangakkara should be nowhere near the side. We hear a lot about how he averages 60 as a ''pure'' batsman or whatever (conveniently removing his initial years where he wasn't good) but somehow he makes it as a wkt keeper bat when he his stats worse than Prior's when he keeps. Give me Abd any day of the week and twice on a Sunday (unless this World 11 is going to be playing Bangladesh in Bangladesh or someone else in Colombo). Abd has ATG stats both inside and outside the SC and doesn't average less than 40 in 4/7 countries.

Murali just misses out. Miller edges out Imran for mine.

 

[kyear2]

1)Gavaskar
2)Hutton
3)Sir DB
4)Tendulkar
5)Viv Richards
6)Ponting
7)Gilchrist
8)Keith Miller
9)Warne
10)Malcolm Marshall
11)McGrath

Had to think a lot about Sobers vs Ponting, but Ponting is a better batsman and fielder. A 5th bowler is unnecessary with 4 ATG bowlers but Viv and Tendulkar can chip in with a few overs if needed.

Sangakkara should be nowhere near the side. We hear a lot about how he averages 60 as a ''pure'' batsman or whatever (conveniently removing his initial years where he wasn't good) but somehow he makes it as a wkt keeper bat when he his stats worse than Prior's when he keeps. Give me Abd any day of the week and twice on a Sunday (unless this World 11 is going to be playing Bangladesh in Bangladesh or someone else in Colombo). Abd has ATG stats both inside and outside the SC and doesn't average less than 40 in 4/7 countries.

Murali just misses out. Miller edges out Imran for mine.

While Ponting is a superb batsman and (slip) fielder and among the very best of all time in both disciplines. Sobers surpasses him as a batsman, slip fielder and was his equal overall in the field. When you add in his versatile bowling, it's a no contest.
Not a slight to Ponting at all as he was truly superb and one of my favorite cricketers of all.

 

[G.I.Joe]

1)Gavaskar
2)Hutton
3)Sir DB
4)Tendulkar
5)Viv Richards
6)Ponting
7)Gilchrist
8)Keith Miller
9)Warne
10)Malcolm Marshall
11)McGrath

Had to think a lot about Sobers vs Ponting, but Ponting is a better batsman and fielder. A 5th bowler is unnecessary with 4 ATG bowlers but Viv and Tendulkar can chip in with a few overs if needed.

Sangakkara should be nowhere near the side. We hear a lot about how he averages 60 as a ''pure'' batsman or whatever (conveniently removing his initial years where he wasn't good) but somehow he makes it as a wkt keeper bat when he his stats worse than Prior's when he keeps. Give me Abd any day of the week and twice on a Sunday (unless this World 11 is going to be playing Bangladesh in Bangladesh or someone else in Colombo). Abd has ATG stats both inside and outside the SC and doesn't average less than 40 in 4/7 countries.

Murali just misses out. Miller edges out Imran for mine.

I like the way you think.

 

[watson]

1)Gavaskar
2)Hutton
3)Sir DB
4)Tendulkar
5)Viv Richards
6)Ponting
7)Gilchrist
8)Keith Miller
9)Warne
10)Malcolm Marshall
11)McGrath

Had to think a lot about Sobers vs Ponting, but Ponting is a better batsman and fielder. A 5th bowler is unnecessary with 4 ATG bowlers but Viv and Tendulkar can chip in with a few overs if needed.

Sangakkara should be nowhere near the side. We hear a lot about how he averages 60 as a ''pure'' batsman or whatever (conveniently removing his initial years where he wasn't good) but somehow he makes it as a wkt keeper bat when he his stats worse than Prior's when he keeps. Give me Abd any day of the week and twice on a Sunday (unless this World 11 is going to be playing Bangladesh in Bangladesh or someone else in Colombo). Abd has ATG stats both inside and outside the SC and doesn't average less than 40 in 4/7 countries.

Murali just misses out. Miller edges out Imran for mine.

Agreed that a 5th bowler is unnecessary if playing against an average Test team. But up against another ATG team a 5th bowler becomes necessary. Since Sobers bowled very well, and maintained an average of 73.04 for a full decade from 1958 to 1968 (78 innings), then you may as well select him.

 

[Jassy]

While Ponting is a superb batsman and (slip) fielder and among the very best of all time in both disciplines. Sobers surpasses him as a batsman, slip fielder and was his equal overall in the field. When you add in his versatile bowling, it's a no contest.
Not a slight to Ponting at all as he was truly superb and one of my favorite cricketers of all.

Look as a batsman it is arguable. I think Ponting was the more skilled batsman, faced stronger line ups on average and had incredible longevity too. Ponting overall definitely the better fielder for me. Sobers was amazing but not as good IMO.

I like the way you think.

This is probably sarcasm but I'll take it as a compliment

Agreed that a 5th bowler is unnecessary if playing against an average Test team. But up against another ATG team a 5th bowler becomes necessary. Since Sobers bowled very well, and maintained an average of 73.04 for a full decade from 1958 to 1968 (78 innings), then you may as well select him.

Wouldn't back Sobers to do particularly well as a bowler against an ATG side TBH. Would rather have Imran Khan in the side then. If I had to accommodate Sobers I would take Viv out.

 

[G.I.Joe]

This is probably sarcasm but I'll take it as a compliment

Lol, no sarcasm.

 

[hendrix]

Since Sobers bowled very well, and maintained an average of 73.04 for a full decade from 1958 to 1968 (78 innings), then you may as well select him.

Yup.

The Sobers vs Imran argument is a non-argument when you realise that Sobers was an ATG batsman and Imran was an ATG bowler and each of them command a spot in the 11 by their primary skill alone.

When you can have both in the team, you'd be mad not to. They complement each other perfectly.

 

[Slifer]

yup.

The sobers vs imran argument is a non-argument when you realise that sobers was an atg batsman and imran was an atg bowler and each of them command a spot in the 11 by their primary skill alone.

When you can have both in the team, you'd be mad not to. They complement each other perfectly.

awta !!!!

 

[subshakerz]

Yup.

The Sobers vs Imran argument is a non-argument when you realise that Sobers was an ATG batsman and Imran was an ATG bowler and each of them command a spot in the 11 by their primary skill alone.

When you can have both in the team, you'd be mad not to. They complement each other perfectly.

Exactly, and it feels the balance of the team perfectly IMO when you have Sobers being a left armer capable of finger spin, wrist spin and pace as the perfect fifth bowling option for all conditions, and Imran who was a specialist later order batsman with the tail. I never liked having only four bowlers only, its a long tail and limits bowling options.

 

[OverratedSanity]

1)Gavaskar
2)Hutton
3)Sir DB
4)Tendulkar
5)Viv Richards
6)Ponting
7)Gilchrist
8)Keith Miller
9)Warne
10)Malcolm Marshall
11)McGrath

Love this XI tbh, even though I usually never like ones without a fifth bowler. I'm a big Ponting fan but swapping him for Border will given that batting lineup everything. Technically perfect openers, Nov. 3,4 are the ultimate run machines and Border can slot in beautifully as the gritty crisis man between the two most devastating batsmen ever in the history of the game in Viv and Gilchrist

 

[Red]

Love this XI tbh, even though I usually never like ones without a fifth bowler. I'm a big Ponting fan but swapping him for Border will given that batting lineup everything. Technically perfect openers, Nov. 3,4 are the ultimate run machines and Border can slot in beautifully as the gritty crisis man between the two most devastating batsmen ever in the history of the game in Viv and Gilchrist

I love Miller, and I think he was a great bowler. But he wasn't a workhorse. I think he needs to be a part of a 5 man attack and he needs to be used in short bursts. Which is why playing Sobers with Miller is ideal. Sobers can take on the stock bowling role and Miller can bowl short sharp bursts. Miller has outstanding bowling stats, but he only took 3 wickets per test. Not enough as a part of a 4 man attack...

 

[subshakerz]

I love Miller, and I think he was a great bowler. But he wasn't a workhorse. I think he needs to be a part of a 5 man attack and he needs to be used in short bursts. Which is why playing Sobers with Miller is ideal. Sobers can take on the stock bowling role and Miller can bowl short sharp bursts. Miller has outstanding bowling stats, but he only took 3 wickets per test. Not enough as a part of a 4 man attack...

Dont see the need for Miller if you have Imran, who was an all-time great bowler and adds a dimension of reverse swing to the attack. Miller was a better bat perhaps, but if he will be batting at no.8, bowling skills are much more important than batting then.

 

[Red]

Dont see the need for Miller if you have Imran, who was an all-time great bowler and adds a dimension of reverse swing to the attack. Miller was a better bat perhaps, but if he will be batting at no.8, bowling skills are much more important than batting then.

Yeh, I don't disagree. My point was more about picking Miller WITHOUT picking Sobers...

 

[kyear2]

Yup.

The Sobers vs Imran argument is a non-argument when you realise that Sobers was an ATG batsman and Imran was an ATG bowler and each of them command a spot in the 11 by their primary skill alone.

When you can have both in the team, you'd be mad not to. They complement each other perfectly.

Fully agree that they both deserve a place in an ATG XI. But Sobers would still make such a team if he never bowled a ball, if Imran batted like McGrath he wouldn't be a similar slam dunk to make such an XI, because to many he wasn't one of the top three fast bowlers of all time. So while I agree that they compliment each other perfectly, they both can't command a place in the team with their primary skill alone.

 

[hendrix]

Fully agree that they both deserve a place in an ATG XI. But Sobers would still make such a team if he never bowled a ball, if Imran batted like McGrath he wouldn't be a similar slam dunk to make such an XI, because to many he wasn't one of the top three fast bowlers of all time. So while I agree that they compliment each other perfectly, they both can't command a place in the team with their primary skill alone.

To me, Imran would be the only bowler that challenges Marshall as the best bowler of all time. In terms of that peak bowling period from 80-87 I don't think there's been a better bowler. I know that many people pick McGrath ahead of him, but I don't.

 

[subshakerz]

To me, Imran would be the only bowler that challenges Marshall as the best bowler of all time. In terms of that peak bowling period from 80-87 I don't think there's been a better bowler. I know that many people pick McGrath ahead of him, but I don't.

Yes, I think Imran is slightly underrated as a bowler. And add to that he also averaged 40 with the bat during this bowling peak is all the more impressive.

 

[watson]

Look as a batsman it is arguable. I think Ponting was the more skilled batsman, faced stronger line ups on average and had incredible longevity too. Ponting overall definitely the better fielder for me. Sobers was amazing but not as good IMO.



This is probably sarcasm but I'll take it as a compliment



Wouldn't back Sobers to do particularly well as a bowler against an ATG side TBH. Would rather have Imran Khan in the side then. If I had to accommodate Sobers I would take Viv out.

This is simply not true. The batsman dismissed most often by Sobers were Ken Barrington and Geoff Boycott (both 7 times). Also near the top of his list were John Edrich (6 times), Cowdrey (5 times) and Dexter (5 times). His favourite Australian was Bob Simpson (4 times).

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/Statistics/Players/PlayerDismissBowl.asp?PlayerID=1652

All of the above batsman had emaculate defences and are ATGs or very close to it.

 

[ohnoitsyou]

Sobers was a bloody good bowler in his prime, which is often neglected due to his somewhat poor average