Virat Kohli, the greatest ODI bat ever?

[Logan]

Just like Viv’s insanely high SR compared to top batsmen back then, Kohli is ahead of his peers in terms of centuries and average.

Kohli’s average is 60. The next best is , Bevan, Babar Azam and ABD with 53.

Kohli has scored 43 centuries in 230 innings. Rohit scored 27 centuries, Taylor scored 20 centuries and ABD scored 25 centuries in similar amount of innings.

It doesn’t take a genius to know Kohli is a phenomenon in ODIs

 

[h_hurricane]

It's better to remove Sachin's teenage years when comparing with Viv. That gives you two exactly same length careers to analyse. AVG and SR almost same .. but after era adjustment Viv stats obviously better but not by that huge margin you think.
Then , Sachin played for a weaker team , faced better bowlers , was an opener , adapted to different eras , scored centuries like no one else in the history , and lasted 24 years.. 7yrs more than Viv.

Abdv has the best stats in Kohli era , but I don't mind people rating Kohli higher .. same applies to Sachin and Viv.

Sachin and Viv were peerless, Kohli and Abdv not .

You are removing Sachin's early years but not Viv's later years. He batted lower down the year in those years and hence could not score massive scores as often. Also Sachin at 23 was an established player having understood his game where as Viv was a newbie. It is unfair to Viv to just calculate stats from that point.

Again, you are giving far too much weightage to being peerless completly discounting the possibility that the second best batsman of an era need not be all that great making the stats of the best batsman of the era look better than it is. If you consider ABD and Kohli in the same ballpark, it does not mean they are inferior to Sachin just because Sachin was 10% better than Lara.

 

[h_hurricane]

It is strange that era adjustments are done for batsmen but not for bowlers. Bumrah will be averaging 17 in the Akram era, Starc likewise in Mcgrath era and Rashid Khan 10 (!!) in the Garner era.

 

[Flem274*]

cricket must be the only sport where people try to argue the quality has worsened over time when it's accepted in every other sport the opposite is objectively true. the quality, skills and athleticism on average has always increased with time.

this doesn't mean jonah or stirling mortlock would be complete spuds in 2019 but they wouldn't grow an arm and a leg either and the average quality of player in super rugby and test rugby is always getting better with time.

if kohli played jamodis in the 80s he'd do about the same, or maybe even better. would still fail when it counts ofc.

 

[stephen]

Just like Viv’s insanely high SR compared to top batsmen back then, Kohli is ahead of his peers in terms of centuries and average.

Kohli’s average is 60. The next best is , Bevan, Babar Azam and ABD with 53.

Kohli has scored 43 centuries in 230 innings. Rohit scored 27 centuries, Taylor scored 20 centuries and ABD scored 25 centuries in similar amount of innings.

It doesn’t take a genius to know Kohli is a phenomenon in ODIs

That's a good point you bring up. Kohli averages 60 and the next best - Bevan - averages 53.

I would like to remind everyone that at around the turn of the century when he was a little older than Kohli is now, Bevan averaged 60. It was his decline which brought it down to 53, which is roughly where I think Kohli will end up.

Kohli's remarkable stats are more around his ability to churn out hundreds than his raw average and strike rate.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Why do you insist on chopping off ABs debut years? Does a player start of as an ATG from Day1 or do they take time to develop?

Let's do a clean comparison since their debut - (AB's numbers vs Kohli's numbers)

Year 1 - 16 @ 67 , 32 @ 67
2 - 42@85 , 54 @ 84
3 - 45 @ 92 , 47 @ 85
4 - 36 @ 78 , 48 @ 86
5 - 54 @ 93 , 68 @ 94
6 - 80 @ 102 , 53 @ 98
7 - 52 @ 105 , 59 @ 100
8 - 107 @ 109 , 37 @ 81
9 - 51 @ 97 , 92 @ 100
10 - 73 @ 114 , 77 @ 99
11 - 80 @ 140 , 134 @ 103
12 - 42 @ 91 , 64 @ 96

Years 6 & 8 - ABD Clearly better.
Years 1,2,4,5,9 & 12 - Kohli Clearly better
Rest - Comparable.

You can do your era whatever - and give the edge to ABD in comparable years (even though the numbers are separated by just 3 years) - but you can't just chop off the first 5 years of ABDs career (basically his whole bad period and claim that he was better - sure his peak was better than Kohli's whole career, but you can do a similar exercise by taking Kohli's numbers from 2016 and claim that ABD was trash compared to him.)

The main point being Kohli's stats not the best for his time. It's not about ABD.

2005-07 top 5 batsman avg ( min 30 innings )
51.4 at 84.6

2008-10
57.16 at 87.6

Of course , there is Era difference.. I took top 5 for the convenience ..you can take a bigger sample.. result would be the same.

What I am saying is , when ABD and Kohli played together (which is 11yrs.. basically Kohli career untill now) , ABD stats are much better .

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Just like Viv’s insanely high SR compared to top batsmen back then, Kohli is ahead of his peers in terms of centuries and average.

Kohli’s average is 60. The next best is , Bevan, Babar Azam and ABD with 53.

Kohli has scored 43 centuries in 230 innings. Rohit scored 27 centuries, Taylor scored 20 centuries and ABD scored 25 centuries in similar amount of innings.

It doesn’t take a genius to know Kohli is a phenomenon in ODIs

Why including ABD stats before 2008 ?

 

[vcs]

AB de Villiers has practically been retired for three years now, while Kohli has been piling them on the whole time. All that counts for nothing though, I guess.

 

[TheJediBrah]

forget about all the stats manipulation, the fact that you can do it every which way to choose who you like shows that they are pretty hard to split. It's not a crazy opinion either way to choose Kohli or ABD

 

[vcs]

It's not. They both get into most people's AT team because they play different roles and are both ATGs at it. But statistically, the gap between them is now the same as Smith vs. the next best in Tests.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

You are removing Sachin's early years but not Viv's later years. He batted lower down the year in those years and hence could not score massive scores as often. Also Sachin at 23 was an established player having understood his game where as Viv was a newbie. It is unfair to Viv to just calculate stats from that point.

Again, you are giving far too much weightage to being peerless completly discounting the possibility that the second best batsman of an era need not be all that great making the stats of the best batsman of the era look better than it is. If you consider ABD and Kohli in the same ballpark, it does not mean they are inferior to Sachin just because Sachin was 10% better than Lara.

Viv played 17 years.. which is basically his Best 17 years.
I think 1994-2010 period is the best for Sachin. That's a 17 year stretch . It's not Sachin's fault he was good enough to play international cricket before and after this 17 years.
Sachin career = 5 yrs + Viv career + 2 years .
Comparing their whole careers results in comparing Sachin's 24 years with Viv's best 17 years.
Lower down batting helps not outs / AVG boosting or better SR .

What I meant is , Kohli is not the numero uno of his era as people claiming. Abdv is equally great. South African players never gets the attention they deserves.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

No Because his WC record is subpar for an ATG

I'm a big fan of Kohli but he is the 4th best ODI bat after Viv, Sachin and De Villiers.


Kohli

26

26

4

1030

107

46.81

1188

86.70

Richards

23

21

5

1013

181

63.31

1191

85.05

Sachin

45

44

4

2278

152

56.95

2560

88.98

De Villiers

23

22

3

1207

162*

63.52

1029

117.29

Kohli despite playing in a more batting friendly era has worse WC record.

He can score twice the centuries as Sachin but as long as he doesn't have a great WC, he won't be the best.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

When Kohli and ABdV played together ( it's 11 years and more than 90% of Kohli career so far )
ABdV was comfortably ahead of Kohli both in AVG and SR .
Avg-SR combo is the primary evidence of batsman quality.
Viv and Sachin were head and shoulders above their contemporaries in this regard ( Abbas was close but played just 60 plus matches )

Kohli - no supremacy.. in fact he is 2nd best for his era.

Kinda dishonest comparison because AB by the time Kohli debuted was an experienced bat while Kohli has to struggle a few years to find his feet in internatinal arena.

Plus AB average is deceptive because he batted at 5.

 

[Calm_profit]

Kohli still has the chance to cement his legacy as the greatest at the next year WC.

 

[Everton Seymour]

For me it's still Sachin , he basically grew up with ODI cricket, was there for all its big changes ( Television umpires making calls on runouts, Powerplays , Coloured clothing etc. etc ) , played in so many World cups , graced so many countries in the world that are long forgotten where they host cricket ... Morocco, Canada , Kenya ..

What made ODI cricket fun was those triangular series and quadrangular series before World Cups and Sachin was a big part of that ... Also engaged in proper ODI bilateral series not the bench strength series we get today ...

If I want a player that reflects ODI cricket I have to pick Sachin Tendulkar,
all the memories he made in ODI cricket can fill up a Bible ..Facing off against Hadlee , Imran Khan as a teenager ...Going toe to toe with Warne , Lara ,Donald in the 90's ... Hitting the first double hundred ever , Top scoring in the world cup ...coping with the lows of India's shock knockout in 07 , the highs of a World Cup win , the comical record against modest bowlers who gave the great man a hard time like Hansie Cronje ...

Stats can never show this even though Tendulkar has amazing stats ...The story is worthy of ATG ...

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Viv 1
Sachin 2
AB, Kohli, and Bevan 3rd equal

 

[Bitmap]

Yeah Kohli's modest WC record for a top tier ATG counts against him.

Viv> Sachin> de Villiers> Kohli> Dhoni as of now

 

[Burgey]

For me it's still Sachin , he basically grew up with ODI cricket, was there for all its big changes ( Television umpires making calls on runouts, Powerplays , Coloured clothing etc. etc ) , played in so many World cups , graced so many countries in the world that are long forgotten where they host cricket ... Morocco, Canada , Kenya ..

What made ODI cricket fun was those triangular series and quadrangular series before World Cups and Sachin was a big part of that ... Also engaged in proper ODI bilateral series not the bench strength series we get today ...

If I want a player that reflects ODI cricket I have to pick Sachin Tendulkar,
all the memories he made in ODI cricket can fill up a Bible ..Facing off against Hadlee , Imran Khan as a teenager ...Going toe to toe with Warne , Lara ,Donald in the 90's ... Hitting the first double hundred ever , Top scoring in the world cup ...coping with the lows of India's shock knockout in 07 , the highs of a World Cup win , the comical record against modest bowlers who gave the great man a hard time like Hansie Cronje ...

Stats can never show this even though Tendulkar has amazing stats ...The story is worthy of ATG ...

Ok

 

[Burgey]

No Because his WC record is subpar for an ATG

I'm a big fan of Kohli but he is the 4th best ODI bat after Viv, Sachin and De Villiers.


Kohli

26

26

4

1030

107

46.81

1188

86.70

Richards

23

21

5

1013

181

63.31

1191

85.05

Sachin

45

44

4

2278

152

56.95

2560

88.98

De Villiers

23

22

3

1207

162*

63.52

1029

117.29

Kohli despite playing in a more batting friendly era has worse WC record.

He can score twice the centuries as Sachin but as long as he doesn't have a great WC, he won't be the best.

Tendulkar and Kohli share ordinary records in WC KOs. Both consistently disappointing when it mattered most. Kohli can at least remedy his record in that regard.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

Tendulkar and Kohli share ordinary records in WC KOs. Both consistently disappointing when it mattered most. Kohli can at least remedy his record in that regard.

85 in 2011 SF against Pakistan, 65 in 1996 SF against SL, 83 against Kenya in 2003 SF. Not ordinary at all. And way better than Kohli.