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This obsession with how batsmen would do against all-time great dream lineups...

NUFAN

Y no Afghanistan flag
What is the definition of an all time great though? Can you just put an arbitrary number up and say so and so is an all time great? If so what should it be? 50? Well then Thilan Samaraweera is one of the greatest batsmen ever. Clearly thats not valid so we have to filter down some other way.

Bottom line is that there is no real uniform definition of what an 'all time great' is and it probably goes beyond numbers. I'd like to think of an all time great as someone who succeeded in all conditions otherwise you are demeaning the other greats of the game. It should really be a very exclusive category and since Hayden didn't succeed in all conditions I don't think I'd admit him.
Thilan Samaraweera is a very interesting cricketer. I don't use the tag All Time Great loosely so he definitely does not fit into that category, but I would definitely consider Samaraweera a great cricketer in home conditions, he averages over 63 in Sri Lanka!

It's a big shame that he started Test Cricket in 2001 and he's played only 5 Tests combined in Australia, England and South Africa and I think it's highly doubtful that he could sustain a 53 average if he was to play away from home more.

But really how far off Mahela and Kumar is Thilan?
 

Athlai

Not Terrible
Thilan Samaraweera is a very interesting cricketer. I don't use the tag All Time Great loosely so he definitely does not fit into that category, but I would definitely consider Samaraweera a great cricketer in home conditions, he averages over 63 in Sri Lanka!

It's a big shame that he started Test Cricket in 2001 and he's played only 5 Tests combined in Australia, England and South Africa and I think it's highly doubtful that he could sustain a 53 average if he was to play away from home more.

But really how far off Mahela and Kumar is Thilan?
Pretty far off IMO, particularly from Kumar.
 

Uppercut

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Well you do get it in other sports but it's mainly teary-eyed geriatrics who no one listens to ranting about how none of these young'uns have a patch on Bobby Charlton/Rod Laver/King Tiddlywink the Third. Cricket is just unique in that teary-eyed geriatrics make up a huge proportion of its fanbase and hence these ideas are more prevalent. It was even run by the Marylebone Society of Teary-Eyed Geriatrics until fairly recently.
 

vcs

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My guess is it happens in all the sports.I follow tennis intensely, and questions in discussion boards as to how a player would have done in a certain era come up all the time (for example if Nadal would have won 2 Wimbledons if he were playing on the fast-grass, big-serving era of the 90s etc.).



Obviously in the current era (almost since 2003) the presence of a truly great attack is virtually non-existent, so in that sense, a batsman being great against such an attack is not of much use for the team. But what I have observed is, batsmen who consistently dominate under tough conditions (like against a peak Marshall, Lillee on a seaming wicket etc.) generally don't have much trouble dominating on flat-tracks against modest attacks.

If I were a team selector or a captain or fan of a team in the current era, I couldn't care less about how a certain player in the team would perform against great attacks of the past. All I would be bothered about is, if he can deliver the goods in the present situation.

But the point of labelling someone as an ATG or bestwoing greatness is completely different. It is quite honestly one's own opinion. It is very hard to find any absolute here. For me, it is very hard to consider a batsman with a severe weakness against pace or short pitched bowling as an all time great (no matter what era it is, or what the statistical acheivements of the batsman in that particular era are). I am much more compromising on weakness against spin.

Ideally I would expect someone who is considered an ATG to have at least one stellar series performance, playing his natural game, in all extremes. This would show that he is capable of performing well in any era (condition). But then, that is just my opinion/taste.

It really depends on one's viewing experience of cricket. As I have said before, those who have never seen Aus-Windies or England-Windies matches during the 80s would have no clue about the degree of difficulty a batsman had to face. Even watching India-RSA or Pak-RSA series in the mid-90s would give some idea.



It depends a lot on what sort of back-up the ATG bowlers have, and if in that series the back-up bowlers themselves were bowling like ATGs. According to many, Thommo was no ATG but the way he bowled at his peak (72 to mid-78), batsmen did not prefer facing him to Lillee (who is obviously an ATG).

Jason Gillespie was pretty ordinary in the absence of McGrath (ignoring his great performances against Zim/BD). But he was very very good as a back-up for McGrath.

Weathering the initial storm (of say the Windies attack of 80s) without giving away the wicket itself was a big deal. Occasionally batsmen truly did not have any respite. After the massacre at MCG in 1988, Allan Border retorted "You wonder where your next single is going to come.". And this despite having a very good, tough batting line-up.

If you are suggesting that great batsmen of this era (with their attacking mindset and strokeplay, and positive attitude) would have done just as well against great attacks of the past (70s, 80s, 90s) by targetting the lesser bowlers, it is very hard to say.

One thing that works against your suggestion though is that performances of many great batsmen of this decade are not all too flattering when they came up against truly great attacks in adverse batting conditions like in the 90s to early 2000s.

To be fair to the batsmen of this era, it is true for batsmen of any era. There is some truth in Andy Robert's statement that all batsmen, no matter how great,are very vulnerable against ferocious pace. It is just that batsmen of this era are damn lucky while those of the 80s facing the Windies weren't that lucky :laugh:.

Nevertheless, it is hard to generalize one way or the other regarding batsmen of the current era. IMO, stats of all current batsmen would suffer if they had to play great attacks frequently. How much they suffer depends on how quickly and how well batsmen of the current era adapt, and how strong their fundamentals of the game are.
That's a good post.
 

vcs

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Well of course any erudite cricket fan when picking these hypotetical all-time XIs for the various nations. Would not make these silly errors. :laugh:




We should always pick the players @ their peaks of their whether bowler or batsman. While for all-rounders, you have to pick the period when the combined batting or bowling the best really. Since the idea of ATXIs is to imagine the best player @ the peaks battling againts each other. Thus:

- For Viv clearly it would circa 1976-1986/88. Not when he passed his peak in 1990/91 at all

- For Tendy in an Indian ATXI or World XI think we could chose anyone TBF. Since Tendy from 1990-2002 & Tendy since 2007/08 are about the same really. ATM i personally am tempted to take the venteran Tendy since he all the skills of 1990-2002, but more experience.

- Imran you got to pick the period when he combined solid batting ability & top quality 90 mph bowling. Which was from Karachi 1980 - Bridgetown 1988.

- For Hobbs, well that one is interesting. I have never read anything that suggest Jack Hobbs style as opener before WW1 & after WW1 was different TBH. The impression i always got is that he came back after WW1 & just continued his run making.





The conditions would have to be under-modern times, thats the most fair balance. Plus cricket has been of a very similar style & standard since the 1950s:

- A regular diet of two of quality new-ball bowlers of the 80-90 mph vs openers in most teams

- change in the lbw rule.

- Introduction of helmets

- elimination of timeless tests

- 6 ball pers over in all natiosn except for AUS in the 60s & 70s

- No uncovered wickets, except the last phase of it in England during the 60s.


So basically the new lbw rule which came into play after 1936 has to be instead of the old one.

No need for timeless test. Since for the 60 years, generally 5 day test have been around.

Old players could/should get to use modern improved equipment as well. That would help them presuming they get time to adjust in a few practice matches.

The other values stuff haha, those are funny imaginatory stuff. But i guess the old stars & modern stars could work it out. :cool:





No to Headley & Pollock IMO. Esepcially if they have to face consist of amount of world-class bowling in these hypotetical matchups.

I think Hadlee may have done fairly similar if he played with a stronger attack.

The high 50+ averages that have been seen in the modern FTB. Would definately be reduced if batsman had to face the a consistent amount of WC bowling attacks from the top 8 nations ATXIs. Without a doubt. It would be an amazing feat with the exception of Bradman to average 50+ againts those kind of attacks.




Ye i'm confident Lillee would. Although he played in era's of alot bowler friendly decks, one or two flat pitches popped up in his career & he took wickets on them.





Yep. The best point.




Yep its all great fun.
Didn't Pollock do well over several matches in WSC?
 

Teja.

Global Moderator
We should always pick the players @ their peaks of their whether bowler or batsman. While for all-rounders, you have to pick the period when the combined batting or bowling the best really. Since the idea of ATXIs is to imagine the best player @ the peaks battling againts each other.
Waqar walks in then?
 

Flem274*

123/5
I'll take Nathan Astle the day he broke the record for fastest double hundred then cheers.

Or Dwayne Smith the day he scored that test century against South Africa.:ph34r:
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Didn't Pollock do well over several matches in WSC?
I dont think he played in WSC actually. He couldn't play unlike Procter & Rice because i believe the rules ATT for the banned SA cricket,s was that only those playing in county cricket could play in WSC (something of the sort). But he was involved in WSC in some major non-playing capacity however.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Waqar walks in then?
Yea in a PAK ATXI. The Waqar that i imagine would be playing is the 22 year old (chose your age) @ his peak between 1990-1994.

But given his peak was only 4 years. When picking a world ATXI, other great fast-bowlers whose peak lasted 10 years like McGrath, Hadlee, Marshall, Lillee, Donald, Imran, Trueman would be picked ahead of him.
 
The thing is it is very easy to degrade a knock by one or more of the following arguments:
1.Flat pitch
2.Weak attack
3.Attack past its best
4.Attack yet to peak
5.Batsmen are playing with helmets.

The above arguments esp. 3 and 4 are very subjective and can be used for 95% of knocks in test history.It is not a batsman's fault that he wasn't born earlier to play in a diff era,or that a bowler isn't at his peak or whatever.While the likes of Hayden and Sehwag have cashed in on good pitches,they have also scored in different,at times difficult,conditions.More importantly they have also given their sides good starts and set up wins-which really is all that matters.
 

Burgey

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There seems to be some impression about the place that a lot of pitches, and I mean a lot, in the 70s, 80s and 90s were green tops or mine fields. Umm, they weren't. Just saying.

There may have been more pitches about the place with something for fast bowlers in them, but the idea that every time a Chappell, Richards or Gavaskar scored a ton it was on an under-prepared, old-style WACA wicket with cracks a mile wide in it is just not the case.
 
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aussie

Hall of Fame Member
There seems to be some impression about the place that a lot of pitches, and I mean a lot, in the 70s, 80s and 90s were green tops or mine fields. Umm, they weren't. Just saying.

There may have been more pitches about the place with something for fast bowlers in them, but the idea that every time a Chappell, Richards or Gavaskar scored a ton it was on an under-prepared, old-style WACA wicket with cracks a mile wide in it is just not the case.
Well i dont have that impression. But i'm quite sure if we check all the hundreds a Gavaskar, Chappell, Richards scored againts a quality pace-attack or on a bowler friendly pitch in 70s & 80s. Compared to a Ponting, Hayden, Kallis in the 2000s era & it fairly obvious that Sunny, Greg & Sunny would have more.
 

Julian87

International Debutant
As much the changing game/conditions as the lineup itself from my perspective.

It'd be like seeing Tiger Woods Play with a 1960s set of clubs or Federer trying to hit his backhand on the up with a wooden racket closer in shape to a modern day shuttlecock hitter than tennis racquet.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
The thing is it is very easy to degrade a knock by one or more of the following arguments:
1.Flat pitch
2.Weak attack
3.Attack past its best
4.Attack yet to peak
5.Batsmen are playing with helmets.

The above arguments esp. 3 and 4 are very subjective and can be used for 95% of knocks in test history.It is not a batsman's fault that he wasn't born earlier to play in a diff era,or that a bowler isn't at his peak or whatever.While the likes of Hayden and Sehwag have cashed in on good pitches,they have also scored in different,at times difficult,conditions.More importantly they have also given their sides good starts and set up wins-which really is all that matters.

Firslty scoring runs on a flat pitch or againts a weak attack. Will forever be always be held againts a batsman. Esepcially if the batsman like many FTBs between 2000-2009, struggled to score runs in difficult batting conditions agaitns good attacks (pace attacks mainly).

Of course in this era of roads, a FTB is very valuable. But bowling friendly pitches pop up every once in a while. Thus the batsman who is able to maintain his stand when condtions get though for batting just like when he was dominating joke attacks on flat pitches. Will always be better.


Secondly i dont know how your points 3 & 4 are sujective & can be used for 95% of the knocks in test history. Thats ludicrous.

It is one of the easiest things in cricket analysis to judge when a bowler had peak or when a bowling attack has peaked. Or when an attack or bowler is passed his best. You simply have to watch them play & most erudite cricket fans will come to same conclusion 95% of the time - its not rocket science.

Let me give you some examples to test your cricket knowledge & you tell me if these player/team peaks is subjective or common cricket knowledge:

- Is it subjective or cricket facts that Waqar Younis bowling peak was from 1990-1994?

- Is it subjective or cricket facts AUS where the best team in world from 95-2006/07?

- Is it subjective or cricket facts that Shane Warne's first peak was from 93-97/98?

- Is it subjective or cricket facts that WI where the best team in the world from 76-91?

- Is it subjective or cricket facts that Ian Botham peak as an all-rounder was from 1977-1982/84?
 

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