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The Mankad

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
I don't really get what you're saying here, as you're not adding anything new to the conversation as far as I can tell. The issue we're discussing is about whether the batsmen needs to look out for the bowler faking him out.

And I am simply saying change the rule to say the non-striker should be inside the crease TILL the ball is ACTUALLY delivered and it removes all ambivalence here. And it is a bloody simple thing to do as a non-striker. We have all heard the story of how Sachin helping Dravid understand which way the ball will swing by holding his bat in one hand for outswing and another for inswing. How do you think all that happens? When the non-striker bloody has his eyes on the ball until it is delivered.

And you saying someone is not adding anything to the discussion... Irony is always lost on you, huh? :laugh:
 

jimmy101

Cricketer Of The Year
As far as I've always been aware it's the non-striker's job, & the non-striker alone, to make sure the ball has been released before they can safely move out from behind the crease. If the non-striker wants to leave the crease before this has happened then, like others have mentioned, it's their risk to take.
 

Burgey

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I look forward to the same people who want a bowler to be able to fake out a batsman having a whinge about even less overs being bowled in a day owing to the number of times the ball isn't released as the fielding side looks for a cheap run out. It's what the big crowds pay good money to see - some **** run in and not let go of the ball.
 

DriveClub

International Regular
Yeah right this is all about what fans want to see. Majority of fans also don't care about test cricket, should we scrap test cricket and play cricket on a t20 league calendar and get in line with other sporting codes?
 

jimmy101

Cricketer Of The Year
It shouldn't have to come down to "fake outs" in my opinion & if that did become a thing it would be a detriment to the sport. I think a simple warning in most cases is enough. Sometimes the batsman isn't even aware they are leaving the crease early & if they received a friendly warning from the fielding team in between deliveries it would hopefully fix the situation in most cases.
 

Burgey

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No it shouldn't have to, but it absolutely has started to and will continue to unless the umpires police it properly.
 

Burgey

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Yeah right this is all about what fans want to see. Majority of fans also don't care about test cricket, should we scrap test cricket and play cricket on a t20 league calendar and get in line with other sporting codes?
It's about more than that, but still partly about it. Sometimes things can be multifaceted. I hope one day you're able to realize this and thereby lead a more broadminded existence
 

NotMcKenzie

International Debutant
I look forward to the same people who want a bowler to be able to fake out a batsman having a whinge about even less overs being bowled in a day owing to the number of times the ball isn't released as the fielding side looks for a cheap run out. It's what the big crowds pay good money to see - some **** run in and not let go of the ball.
I very much doubt it would be a problem except where spinners are bowling a lot. A pace bowler would be rather hard-pressed to stop their bowling action once in their delivery stride and probably would also have difficulty looking at the non-striker's feet and bat. And with spinners, one can definitely stay in one's crease until the ball is released, so they'll probably not bother, particularly if they are concentrating on their bowling. The laws forbid one from retaining the ball, and staying in one's crease until it is in the air will take care of that. This is just exaggeration.
 

Burgey

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It's not though, if you look at the examples cited by Howe earlier in this thread, and in the disgraceful Ashwin-Buttler fiasco too.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
I look forward to the same people who want a bowler to be able to fake out a batsman having a whinge about even less overs being bowled in a day owing to the number of times the ball isn't released as the fielding side looks for a cheap run out. It's what the big crowds pay good money to see - some **** run in and not let go of the ball.
No it shouldn't have to, but it absolutely has started to and will continue to unless the umpires police it properly.
Its funny how you can tell others to be it and yet you can't take your own advice. Seriously, try this:


It's about more than that, but still partly about it. Sometimes things can be multifaceted. I hope one day you're able to realize this and thereby lead a more broadminded existence
It's good advice for yourself. ^^

It's not though, if you look at the examples cited by Howe earlier in this thread, and in the disgraceful Ashwin-Buttler fiasco too.

The point is the fake outs are happening BECAUSE batsmen are moving out of the crease before the ball is bowled. At least that is what happened with the Buttler run out. And no one except you and Jimmy Anderson has been carrying on about it being a big issue. And when your company is that guy, it tells you what sort of point you have, which is basicaly none. Yes, fake outs are a thing coz of how the law is today. But what happens most of the time is batsmen keep leaving the crease before the ball is bowled, bowler notices it, then runs them out which may or may not have been a fake out, coz they can simply say they just started watching the non-striker more closely.

Its very simple. Make the law black and white. Don't move outside your crease as the non-striker until the ball has been delivered (left the bowlers' hand) or risk being run out otherwise. Something that simple can actually eradicate all the stupid fake outs like the 2016 U19 WC final and the recent one.
 

TheJediBrah

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As far as I've always been aware it's the non-striker's job, & the non-striker alone, to make sure the ball has been released before they can safely move out from behind the crease. If the non-striker wants to leave the crease before this has happened then, like others have mentioned, it's their risk to take.
If that's the case then you should familiar yourself with the rules, as that's actually not the case.

I look forward to the same people who want a bowler to be able to fake out a batsman having a whinge about even less overs being bowled in a day owing to the number of times the ball isn't released as the fielding side looks for a cheap run out. It's what the big crowds pay good money to see - some **** run in and not let go of the ball.
It's laughable, and shocks me how so many people here fail to see where such a rule would lead. It's hard to even imagine how tedious the sport of cricket would become if bowlers could "fake-out mankad" batsmen at will. The number of 3rd umpire reviews alone would be absurd.

I very much doubt it would be a problem except where spinners are bowling a lot. A pace bowler would be rather hard-pressed to stop their bowling action once in their delivery stride and probably would also have difficulty looking at the non-striker's feet and bat. And with spinners, one can definitely stay in one's crease until the ball is released, so they'll probably not bother, particularly if they are concentrating on their bowling. The laws forbid one from retaining the ball, and staying in one's crease until it is in the air will take care of that. This is just exaggeration.
If the law is changed to allow it though, as some have suggested, it would become much more common practice and you'd better believe that fast bowlers would optimise how to do it if it meant they would get a wicket from it.
 
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DriveClub

International Regular
It's about more than that, but still partly about it. Sometimes things can be multifaceted. I hope one day you're able to realize this and thereby lead a more broadminded existence
That's just too ironic tbh having to read your oft repeated one liners in every thread
 

cnerd123

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Bowler's faking out batsmen will not be a thing jfc. The Laws are already written in a way to prevent that.
 

Burgey

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Its funny how you can tell others to be it and yet you can't take your own advice. Seriously, try this:




It's good advice for yourself. ^^




The point is the fake outs are happening BECAUSE batsmen are moving out of the crease before the ball is bowled. At least that is what happened with the Buttler run out. And no one except you and Jimmy Anderson has been carrying on about it being a big issue. And when your company is that guy, it tells you what sort of point you have, which is basicaly none. Yes, fake outs are a thing coz of how the law is today. But what happens most of the time is batsmen keep leaving the crease before the ball is bowled, bowler notices it, then runs them out which may or may not have been a fake out, coz they can simply say they just started watching the non-striker more closely.

Its very simple. Make the law black and white. Don't move outside your crease as the non-striker until the ball has been delivered (left the bowlers' hand) or risk being run out otherwise. Something that simple can actually eradicate all the stupid fake outs like the 2016 U19 WC final and the recent one.
Look, I'm not going to cop advice on posting standards and sensitivity from you of all people.

But just to be clear, if the bowler goes past the point where he normally releases the ball, and the batsman moves out of his crease, you're fine with a run out being effected?
 

jimmy101

Cricketer Of The Year
If that's the case then you should familiar yourself with the rules, as that's actually not the case.
"A non-striker who is out of his crease before the point of release is either taking an advantage or is acting carelessly, and runs the risk of being legitimately run out" according to the WCC. Seems like the onus is on the non-striker.
 

NotMcKenzie

International Debutant
The Ashwin-Buttler thing and Howe's posts are an example of the sloppy thinking particularly with respect to the laws as currently written.

Buttler was not watching the bowler even before Ashwin had entered his pre-delivery stride. He'd probably timed himself on Ashwin's full run-up on the first ball of the over [Buttler was run-out on what would have been the last] and thereafter payed no attention at all to the bowler other than to watch the run-up's commencement. Buttler simply assumed that the same thing would happen without checking whether that was actually the case, which is like expecting all deliveries to move one way just because the first did.

Ever since retaining the ball to effect a run-out was disallowed, the laws have limited the point at which running out the non-striker by defining certain physical actions or positions which the bowler has attained, namely

--- The delivery stride
--- The swing of the bowler's arm
--- The expected release point

None of the laws mention the timing of these particular actions, therefore they must refer to the physical occurrence of them, 'expected release point' referring to a point at which the bowler, having gone through his run-up and going through his bowling action, would normal release the ball rather than retaining a hold of it.

The laws do not in any way state, "where the batsman has made a mental calculation as to when these actions would have occurred".

One could theoretically try 'pull-out' of one's bowling action even as the arm is coming up over one's shoulder to effect a run out assuming one could do it in the correct way: in reality, as the umpire has some discretion under the various laws, it is unlikely a bowler could say he pulled out 50 cm before his release point as the physical action would probably be indistinguishable from a normal bowling action with the ball retained, but this is just hypothetical.
Equally, one can make the physical allowance as an umpire for the fact that a bowler pulling out at the end of his pre-delivery stride will result in him assuming a position that may look similar to a bowling delivery. In the Buttler run-out, some posters here as well as people on other sites showed a picture of Ashwin with his legs spread apart, left foot ahead of right foot and right arm down and used it to argue that he 'faked'. But the results of the pre-delivery stride (the 'jump' or 'cross') mean one will end up with one's legs in that position no matter what if one tries to stop before bowling, and the right arm was down so he could actually break the wicket. At no point had he actually begun to swing his arm over like he was actually trying to move the ball down the pitch.

The laws do not give space for the expectations of the batsman based on his judgement alone as to when he can move off.
 

NotMcKenzie

International Debutant
If the law is changed to allow it though, as some have suggested, it would become much more common practice and you'd better believe that fast bowlers would optimise how to do it if it meant they would get a wicket from it.
If a fast bowler is optimising his bowling action to be able to pull out of it to run the non-striker out, chances are he isn't bowling very fast, otherwise he would have difficulty counter-acting all that built up momentum. He could do it before entering his delivery stride as Kapil Dev did to Peter Kirsten, but otherwise I suspect it would be unworkable once entered into a fast bowling action. He'd have to decide to do it before he begins swinging his arm around, and of course a batsman could safeguard himself by the simple expedient of watching for that.
 

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