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The Best at their Best

Daemon

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Read the very first line again, you know, the bit before the bolded text

I'm not denying that plenty of rated spinners have gone to the subcontinent and got shown up. It's just that in recent years Lyon is most certainly not one of them.
Well TJB asked for 3 examples of when touring spinners get murdered and local ones do great and I provided him 3 examples. Whether or not Lyon went on to be the greatest offie of all time is irrelevant, it doesn't make them bad examples.

It's like asking for an example of a steak, being provided one and then saying but the steak was subsequently dry aged and is now a lot better. Irrelevant.
 

GoodAreasShane

Cricketer Of The Year
Well TJB asked for 3 examples of when touring spinners get murdered and local ones do great and I provided him 3 examples. Whether or not Lyon went on to be the greatest offie of all time is irrelevant, it doesn't make them bad examples.

It's like asking for an example of a steak, being provided one and then saying but the steak was subsequently dry aged and is now a lot better. Irrelevant.
Using a different example would have likely avoided the absolute cancer directly below your post, so yes it was a bad example
 

Daemon

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Yeah rubbish from TJB to claim Lyon isn't a good spinner. Bang on about the lightbulb head though.
 

TheJediBrah

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I've accepted he's a good spinner for a few years now. I'll admit he always had the potential to succeed, unlike Travis Head.
 

GoodAreasShane

Cricketer Of The Year
Yeah rubbish from TJB to claim Lyon isn't a good spinner. Bang on about the lightbulb head though.
Most of the best spinners over the years have been fairly weird looking blokes, Garry is just continuing that proud tradition


As a general rule rig based selections don't work
 
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TheJediBrah

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Most of the best spinners over the years have been fairly weird looking blokes, Garry is just continuing that proud tradition


As a general rule rig based selections don't work
The how do you explain Travis Head? Terrible rig and still doesn't work




sorry GAS last one. Trav is ok.
 

Migara

Cricketer Of The Year
Anyway I reckon the whole "touring spinners sucking in Asia while home spinners dominate" actually happens less than "touring quicks sucking in Aus/Eng/NZ while home quicks dominate"
But you will not see touring teams whinning over that, like when they are presented with a dustbowl.
 

Flametree

International 12th Man
Holding at the Oval in '76. 14-149 while other quick bowlers in the match (including Willis, Roberts and Holder) took about 8-630
Lara had a lot of great moments, but his three tests in a losing cause in Sri Lanka were pretty remarkable given the only other player to just about break double figures was Sarwan.
One I saw in person was Walsh destroying NZ at the Basin in 1995. 13-55 on the flattest wicket you could find. Admittedly NZ were utter rubbish that season, but still, Ambrose got just two wickets in the match.
 

Daemon

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Anyway I reckon the whole "touring spinners sucking in Asia while home spinners dominate" actually happens less than "touring quicks sucking in Aus/Eng/NZ while home quicks dominate"
Yeah for sure, largely been down to Indian and SL quicks being historically garbage. The decent ones like Dev and Vaas at least found success in Aus and NZ respectively.
 

Migara

Cricketer Of The Year
Yeah for sure, largely been down to Indian and SL quicks being historically garbage. The decent ones like Dev and Vaas at least found success in Aus and NZ respectively.
Honorable mentions for Zaheer and Srinath. Pakistani ones were any way good. Malinga was extremely good in the handful of away tests he played. Bumrah is top class. SO the gulf between spin / pace bowling among teams have reduced for sure.(Conversely England had Swann, Aussies has Lyon who are pretty good spinners)
 

TheJediBrah

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Yeah for sure, largely been down to Indian and SL quicks being historically garbage. The decent ones like Dev and Vaas at least found success in Aus and NZ respectively.
Vaas deserves more recognition. To be as effective as he was in conditions designed to negate fast bowling was pretty special.
 

Migara

Cricketer Of The Year
Yeah. Was a good foil for Murali as well. Like Starc for Lyon, he created nice foot marks.
Vaas was never able to do that. Too short and too light for the job. And he glides to the crease and very light on landing. Nuwan Zoysa was the only one out of SL who could do it.

Vaas survived for such a long time because he didn'tput much stress on his frame with the bowling action.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Honorable mentions for Zaheer and Srinath. Pakistani ones were any way good. Malinga was extremely good in the handful of away tests he played. Bumrah is top class. SO the gulf between spin / pace bowling among teams have reduced for sure.(Conversely England had Swann, Aussies has Lyon who are pretty good spinners)
Your definition of extremely good is obviously a very generous one.
 

nightprowler10

Global Moderator
Viv Richard's performances against Pak in 1980-81 Test series.

As far as batsmen are concerned - to me - it is about a couple of things - performing against a great attack, and thriving in conditions where rest of one's teammates have wilted away
Blanket stats like for example average against Aus in Aus etc. don't mean much to me unless I know what the exact conditions were & who the individuals were in the opposition.
For example, if we compare Viv Richard's first Test series in Australia in 1975-76 with his last Test series in Australia in 1988-89.
On paper, Viv scored 426 runs @ average of 39 in 1975-76, and 446 runs @ average of 56 in 1988-89.
Although on paper Viv's performance in 88-89 Aus series was much better, to me there is no comparison.
I'd put his performance in 75-76 series (particularly in the last 4 Test matches of the series) way above his 88-89 series, simply because batting was far tougher for West Indies in 75-76.
In his last 4 Test matches of the 75-76 series, against Lillee & Thommo in their prime, Viv scored 402 runs @ average of 50.25 and at a strike rate of 80 runs per 100 balls (unheard of - in those days).
In those 4 matches, he scored nearly 100 runs more than the next best batsman. And that was just the second away Test tour of Viv's career.

Coming to Viv's 80-81 Test series against Pak, few things stand out. West Indies innings total never reached 300 in the entire series.
Viv scored 364 runs at an average of 73. Next best batting average was tailender Sylvester Clarke with avg of 34.
No other West Indian batsman averaged above 30.

These figures however do not do justice to the visual impact of Viv's performances, especially in Multan Test.
Imran tore through the West Indian top order, but Viv just went after him. It was incredible watching a great batsman going after a great fast bowler in Test match cricket.
Viv went on to score an unbeaten 120, next highest score was Larry Gomes who chipped in with 30+ runs.

In Faisalabad, Viv scored twin 50s in both the innings while, none of his teammates (and practically the entire opposition too) crossed 50 in both the innings.

As far as West Indian batting was concerned, Viv was the only reason West Indies squeezed through that series with Pak.
There's a series I would give anything to watch live.

Both great knocks but his defining knock would be his 267 against India which was a high pressure match I feel.
Coming in at 2/7 in a must win match. Decent amount of pressure.
 

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