The Best at their Best

[Migara]

There will always be attempts to play down, even denigrate, Jim Laker's performance in the 4th Test at Old Trafford in 1956. Claims that the pitch was "doctored" or "cooked" abound but to put Laker's performance into context one needs to consider the performances of other spinners playing in that game. Admittedly England had the advantage of batting first on a wicket that deteriorated as the game progressed making 459 with Peter Richardson and Rev, David Sheppard making centuries. Australia had a couple of handy spinners in Ian Johnson and Richie Benaud.Both bowled 47 overs for 4-151 and 2-123 respectively. When it came to Australia's turn to bat, the openers, Colin McDonald (32) and Jim Burke (22), put on 48 before the wickets began to tumble and Australia were dismissed for 84 with Laker taking 9 for 37. His spin partner, Tony Lock took the other wicket (Burke) to fall. Australia performed better in their second dig. Once again McDonald (89) and Burke (33) provided a solid start while young Ian Craig made 38. However, of the remainder only Benaud (18) made double figures. Australia were all out for 205 with Laker taking 10 for 53. In all he sent down 68 overs he took 19 for 90 while fellow spinner Lock bowled one more over for figures of 1 for 106. Among Laker's victims were luminaries such as Neil Harvey, who made a 'pair' and Keith Miller, out for 6 and 0. Putting Laker's performance into perspective, we should consider that spinners Johnson, Benaud and Lock bowled a total of 163 overs in taking 7 for 380 on an allegedly "cooked" pitch.
At the end of the series, in which Laker took 46 wickets at an average of 9.60, Ian Johnson said, "When the controversy and the side issues are forgotten, Laker's wonderful bowling will remain."

HYet we keep on hearing the same **** when touring spinners take 3-200 and local ones take 17-135 when teams tour Asia.

 

[TheJediBrah]

when touring spinners take 3-200 and local ones take 17-135 when teams tour Asia.

Give 3 examples

 

[NotMcKenzie]

Give 3 examples

And none of them South African

 

[Starfighter]

I don't know if zoom lenses were available then.

Well that's exactly what's being used in the film. Problem is the cameraman insists on starting zoomed out and zooming in as the bowler is bowling, thus meaning you get this irritating effect that obscures what's going on and you still can't see the ball very well.

 

[Shady Slim]

just off the top of my head i'd expect migara has a point and probably could substantiate it

a lot of overseas spinners struggle in asia bc they don't get the need to vary your sidespin and your overspin relative to your home conditions, instead thinking that if they just bowl the ball it'll turn square - warne is all over this in his autobiography it's a good read

 

[Daemon]

Give 3 examples

Here's 3 from Lyon's career

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...ustralia-tour-of-united-arab-emirates-2014-15
https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...ustralia-tour-of-united-arab-emirates-2014-15
https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...alia-1st-test-australia-tour-of-india-2012-13

Plenty more I'm sure

 

[GoodAreasShane]

Here's 3 from Lyon's career

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...ustralia-tour-of-united-arab-emirates-2014-15
https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...ustralia-tour-of-united-arab-emirates-2014-15
https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...alia-1st-test-australia-tour-of-india-2012-13

Plenty more I'm sure

Lyon is about the worst example you could use. Yes he struggled somewhat in his earlier experiences in the subcontinent, but he learned and adapted from that, has been absolute quality when in the subcontinent for 3 or 4 years now.

TJB will probably agree with you though

 

[TheJediBrah]

If SOK played those games he would have taken 12-60

 

[trundler]

The same principle applies to visiting quicks in England and SA. Lots of Asian pacers who should've done well in England didn't set the world on fire there. As much as it pains me to say, Anderson does deserve some credit. And so do Ashwin and Jadeja.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

Except he actually did play in one of those tests


Try again next time

 

[TheJediBrah]

Except he actually did play in one of those tests


Try again next time

Oh I will. But don't expect any improvement.

 

[stephen]

The same principle applies to visiting quicks in England and SA. Lots of Asian pacers who should've done well in England didn't set the world on fire there. As much as it pains me to say, Anderson does deserve some credit. And so do Ashwin and Jadeja.

Who would be the third quick in a specialist English attack? Anderson and Bedser are the first two chosen. Which other English bowler has had a great record despite a huge disparity between home and away stats?

 

[GoodAreasShane]

Oh I will. But don't expect any improvement.

Are you actually capable of having a rational and nuanced view on anything? Just saying "he sucks lol" isn't even a point of argument, it's just tryhard garbage

 

[TheJediBrah]

Are you actually capable of having a rational and nuanced view on anything? Just saying "he sucks lol" isn't even a point of argument, it's just tryhard garbage

sometimes. But rarely. This is an activity I choose to do, not work I am getting paid to be serious about.

lol

edit: pretty sure we've had this exact conversation before btw

 

[Daemon]

Lyon is about the worst example you could use. Yes he struggled somewhat in his earlier experiences in the subcontinent, but he learned and adapted from that, has been absolute quality when in the subcontinent for 3 or 4 years now.

TJB will probably agree with you though

How is that relevant to examples of this

when touring spinners take 3-200 and local ones take 17-135 when teams tour Asia.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

How is that relevant to examples of this

Read the very first line again, you know, the bit before the bolded text

I'm not denying that plenty of rated spinners have gone to the subcontinent and got shown up. It's just that in recent years Lyon is most certainly not one of them.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Anyway I reckon the whole "touring spinners sucking in Asia while home spinners dominate" actually happens less than "touring quicks sucking in Aus/Eng/NZ while home quicks dominate"

 

[vcs]

Anyway I reckon the whole "touring spinners sucking in Asia while home spinners dominate" actually happens less than "touring quicks sucking in Aus/Eng/NZ while home quicks dominate"

Isn't that a roundabout way of trying to argue that "Aus/NZ/Eng dominate their home conditions more than Asian teams"? I'm not sure the statistics bear that out. In case of England, it is demonstrably false. NZ draw a fair share of games. Australia yeah, they're pretty dominant, but their fortress has been breached quite a bit in the last decade.

 

[tony p]

growing up i was and still am a fan of the great ALLAN BORDER.

his performance against the west indies in march 1984 at port-of-spain was the best of his best. it showed how great a player he was in a weak side.

border 98no out of 255, 100no out of 9-299, to draw the match against the windies, 8 dec for 468.

the attack was GARNER, MARSHALL, DANIEL & SMALL, with overs from gomes & richards in the second innings. no other batsman scored more than 48 in either innings and it took an amazing 10th wkt partnership with ALDERMAN of 95 minutes to save the match and reach his hundred.

just to confirm his greatness in this series, he scored twice as many runs as anybody else, 521, next was phillips with 258, both had 10 innings, and he averaged virtually 3 times as much as the next best average, 74.42 to phillips 25.80. and just for good measure he also scored 98 at st.johns as well in the 4th test, with an attack of HOLDING, MARSHALL, GARNER & BAPTISTE.

i'm sure JEFF DUJON said one of his greatest regrets in cricket is that border didn't make a century in each innings, because he deserved to.
i listened to this series on the radio when i was 17.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Isn't that a roundabout way of trying to argue that "Aus/NZ/Eng dominate their home conditions more than Asian teams"? I'm not sure the statistics bear that out. In case of England, it is demonstrably false. NZ draw a fair share of games. Australia yeah, they're pretty dominant, but their fortress has been breached quite a bit in the last decade.

Not sure why I brought it up in hindsight but I wasn't trying to argue this

Also not sure what the answer is but if it wouldn't be that hard to count the percentage of Asian teams winning outside Asia and compare it to non-Asians winning in Asia.