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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

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Patience and Accuracy+Gut

State Regular
howitzer said:
Trumper's average specifically as an opener is really not that much to write home about, even in the context of the era he played. His middle order record is excellent though and he would have been included in a squad that had weaker middle order batting, like England for example.
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I find it very hard to believe someone like Lawry or Simpson is a better player than Trumper. Trumper was near unquestionably Australia’s greatest cricketer in first 50 Years.
 
Coronis

Coronis

Cricketer Of The Year
capt_Luffy said:
Also Clem Hill. But I am afraid none of them are really any close to Trumper; especially on reputation and peer ratings.
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Further proof to discredit these as rating measures…


Patience and Accuracy+Gut said:
I find it very hard to believe someone like Lawry or Simpson is a better player than Trumper. Trumper was near unquestionably Australia’s greatest cricketer in first 50 Years.
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So?
 
Coronis

Coronis

Cricketer Of The Year
capt_Luffy said:
So you believe Jack Blackham, Warwick Armstrong or Fred Spofforth to be better than Victor Trumper??
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Not necessarily. There’s definitely not a huge gap though. Hill was at worst a smidge below Trumper, I have him above, as do some others here. Armstrong was not only a 38 averaging batsman - clearly below Hill and Trumper though - but also a roughly Kallis level bowler on top of that. Definitely a clear argument to be a better cricketer. Blackham is hard - pure keeping skill is almost impossible to compare to batting/bowling imo. I’d view Spofforth and Turner as basically the bowling counterparts of Hill and Trumper so yeah considering this reputation and peer rating claims Trumper to be unquestionably the greatest Aussie cricketer to that point I don’t put much stock in that.
 
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

International Debutant
Coronis said:
Not necessarily. There’s definitely not a huge gap though. Hill was at worst a smidge below Trumper, I have him above, as do some others here. Armstrong was not only a 38 averaging batsman - clearly below Hill and Trumper though - but also a roughly Kallis level bowler on top of that. Definitely a clear argument to be a better cricketer. Blackham is hard - pure keeping skill is almost impossible to compare to batting/bowling imo. I’d view Spofforth and Turner as basically the bowling counterparts of Hill and Trumper so yeah considering this reputation and peer rating claims Trumper to be unquestionably the greatest Aussie cricketer to that point I don’t put much stock in that.
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Then let's agree to disagree on that. I can think of an argument for especially Hill (Trumper's middle-order record is much better); and Armstrong (as all-rounder, though he averaged too high with the ball for his era), Spofforth (tough to rate bowlers playing 1870s, the pitches were too bowling friendly and his average not too better than the era average).
 
centurymaker

centurymaker

Cricketer Of The Year
Top 12 bats-

Bradman
Tendukar / Hobbs
V Richards / Sobers
Lara
Gavaskar
Smith / Ponting
Kallis / Hammond
Hutton
 
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Line and Length

Line and Length

Cricketer Of The Year
centurymaker said:
Top 12 bats-

Bradman
Tendukar / Hobbs
V Richards / Sobers
Lara
Smith / Ponting
Gavaskar
Kallis / Hammond
Hutton
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A reasonable ranking. Let's see how it compares to the CW poll.

1 Bradman
4 Tendukar / 2 Hobbs
5 V Richards / 3 Sobers
6 Lara
10 Smith / 14 Ponting
9 Gavaskar
18 Kallis / 8 Hammond
7 Hutton
 
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

International Debutant
I have:
Bradman

Grace/Hobbs/Tendulkar/Sobers

Smith/Lara/Gavaskar/Richards/Hutton/Hammond

Headley/Chappell/Sutcliffe/Pollock/Trumper

Sangakkara/Border/Kallis/Waugh/Dravid/Ponting/Weekes/ Barrington/Walcott/Miandad/B Richards/de Villiers/ Ranjitsinhji
 
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capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

International Debutant
Red_Ink_Squid said:
I'd go something like:

Grace/Bradman/Woakes
Hobbs/Hutton/Sobers/Sachin
Richards/Lara
Sutcliffe/Hammond/Chappell/Gavaskar/Kallis/Ponting/Sanga/Smith
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What on earth is Woakes doing in the same tier as those hacks of Bradman and Grace!!? He is clearly 2 tiers above them. His batting average in England is higher than that of WG for crying out loud. Worst ranking ever; didn't expect it from you....
 
kyear2

kyear2

Cricketer Of The Year
Bradman
Tendulkar - Sobers - Hobbs - Richards - Smith - Lara - Hutton

Gavaskar - Ponting - Hammond - Chappell
 
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