Test XI for The Last Quarter Century

[TheJediBrah]

How do I atone for this grave sin

Have to live the rest of your life in Pakistan. Or Perth.

 

[Jack1]

Maxwell is at the point where he shouldn't be near a franchise league T20 side. The Twatto should not be in consideration anyway too but he isn't that much of a poor pick compared to Maxwell but still is. There have been so many hard-hitting proper openers like Gilly and Sanath to go and pick a bloke like Maxwell. Just pick Afridi, you get the extra bowling that way at least.

t20 and odis aren't that comparable. Different bowlers and IPL has a very different pressure. Bear in mind not every pitch is the same either. On a belting flat wicket Maxwell would be ideal up the top. I think the point is he's only there for strike rate, it doesn't matter if he only averages 20 odd because the rest of the line up is so strong. He needs to open as he's the most capable batsman of taking advantage of a power play. I think he's wasted lower down in any side, even a club side or whatever.

Also you need enough good fielders in there and he's a good one.

remember when Maxwell just let a ball go and bowl him in a BBL game a few years back? Still one of the funniest things I've seen on a cricket field. Clarke did something almost identical in an ODI too.

He hit a reverse sweep six once too. He's a crazy player.

 

[Jack1]

Having Maxwell open and Gilly at 6 is nonsensical. It's just swapping them out of their best positions for a silly reason. Same with Watson. Watson and Gilly both far better up the top.

Maxwell shouldn't even be close to an ATG side regardless

32 average in ODIs with a 123 SR career. He is not a bad player at all. One IPL season on India wickets in a 20 over tournament isn't really relevant to his ODI stats. He's a good fielder too. His T20I stats are also phenomenal, 34.5 average with 167 strike rate...he's got incredible stats with the bat in limited overs internationals, list A and overall t20 career is fine.

I think you are thinking of averages more than strike rate here and probably think his stats are worse than they are. Maxwell is going to be scoring at the fastest rate as opener and probably going to score slower the lower he bats, especially in a team like that where he knows how much batting there is to come. If he can even average only 25 in this team but get it off 12 balls on average then it would be perfect.

Watson and Gilchrist are going to score quicker the lower they bat. They have the ability to hit big and physically strong players. They would score quicker if they batted lower definitely and have more skill to adapt to different situations, so it's in the interest of the team.

Maxwell is at the point where he shouldn't be near a franchise league T20 side. The Twatto should not be in consideration anyway too but he isn't that much of a poor pick compared to Maxwell but still is. There have been so many hard-hitting proper openers like Gilly and Sanath to go and pick a bloke like Maxwell. Just pick Afridi, you get the extra bowling that way at least.

Watson is a very good option considering his bowling. Gilchrist and Jayasuria aren't going to get you off to a flier like Buttler or Maxwell that's for sure.

Jayasuria only averaged 32 in odis with a 91 sr. I don't see how you can consider that a better option than Maxwell who averages 32 as well in ODIs but with 123 SR. 32 isn't a low average at all for a slogger. Maxwell a better fielder too. Don't need their bowling.

 

[Jack1]

Twatto is chronically underrated in Limited-overs. I wouldn't question anyone selecting him in an ATG ODI or T20 side.

ODI bat avge 40+, bowl avge: 31. Didn't play much against minnows either. Similar stats to Kallis but scores his runs much quicker, and he's just a 6 hitting machine when he gets going.

That's why I have Watson lower. He's a big unit and if he comes on late on a good hitter. He will score faster lower down as no need to build any sort of platform for himself and the team. His bowling is really good, very good 5th bowler option in an all time team. Good economy rate and can bowl any time in the innings.

Bear in mind I support England, it's not like I'm being remotely biased here. Maxwell is a hugely underrated limited overs player considering his career stats are so good. Very good player.

 

[trundler]

He's still going though. He hasn't done enough to be in consideration as of yet. Plus, you cant just through either of strike rate and average out of the window and just stick with one. You gotta score heavy runs and score them quickly. A 120+ strike rate is wasted if he's going to get out first over to a quality bowler like Ambrose, Donald, or whoever you're facing. Even Sehwag would be a better option than him. You cant expect Maxwell to get you to 60-0 in 5 over against ATG bowling. Good idea, again but nonsense selection. He doesn't even have 100 ODIs under his belt.

 

[Bolo]

Jaya did this over hundreds of games. Maxwell has done it over 50 and seems to be getting worse with time. Jaya is being picked as an allrounder while you seem to be picking Maxwell as an (almost?) specialist bat. Jaya played in a different era. His stats are more impressive when adjusted to compensate for this. Strike rates have changed a lot. Jayas 90 is worth somewhere over 100 today. Averages have changed too. And even after all of this, I think Jaya isn't good enough.

Your team strategy of maxing the strike rate has some validity. But you have gone a bit overboard on it by having three sloggers who haven't had proper careers and we can't fully assess (as well as Rashid). Most people prefer to look at completed or nearly completed careers before making this type of call. This is the reason nobody is picking Starc, who has an unbelievable record considering the era he is playing in.

You also need proper bats to face ATG attacks. You only have 2 elite bats who can build an innings for you. You need to be mindful of strike rate (hence nobody picking Kallis), but slogging every game is only going to work from time to time- even against a weak attack you will collapse from time to time, while it will happen a lot vs a good one.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Jaya did this over hundreds of games. Maxwell has done it over 50 and seems to be getting worse with time. Jaya is being picked as an allrounder while you seem to be picking Maxwell as an (almost?) specialist bat. Jaya played in a different era. His stats are more impressive when adjusted to compensate for this. Strike rates have changed a lot. Jayas 90 is worth somewhere over 100 today. Averages have changed too. And even after all of this, I think Jaya isn't good enough.

Your team strategy of maxing the strike rate has some validity. But you have gone a bit overboard on it by having three sloggers who haven't had proper careers and we can't fully assess (as well as Rashid). Most people prefer to look at completed or nearly completed careers before making this type of call. This is the reason nobody is picking Starc, who has an unbelievable record considering the era he is playing in.

You also need proper bats to face ATG attacks. You only have 2 elite bats who can build an innings for you. You need to be mindful of strike rate (hence nobody picking Kallis), but slogging every game is only going to work from time to time- even against a weak attack you will collapse from time to time, while it will happen a lot vs a good one.

lol so true

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Jaya did this over hundreds of games. Maxwell has done it over 50 and seems to be getting worse with time. Jaya is being picked as an allrounder while you seem to be picking Maxwell as an (almost?) specialist bat. Jaya played in a different era. His stats are more impressive when adjusted to compensate for this. Strike rates have changed a lot. Jayas 90 is worth somewhere over 100 today. Averages have changed too. And even after all of this, I think Jaya isn't good enough.

Your team strategy of maxing the strike rate has some validity. But you have gone a bit overboard on it by having three sloggers who haven't had proper careers and we can't fully assess (as well as Rashid). Most people prefer to look at completed or nearly completed careers before making this type of call. This is the reason nobody is picking Starc, who has an unbelievable record considering the era he is playing in.

You also need proper bats to face ATG attacks. You only have 2 elite bats who can build an innings for you. You need to be mindful of strike rate (hence nobody picking Kallis), but slogging every game is only going to work from time to time- even against a weak attack you will collapse from time to time, while it will happen a lot vs a good one.

Bolo please critique this team:

1Tendulkar (7 second spinner)
2Amla
3Kohli
4ABDV
5Watto 6
6Buttler +
7L Kluesner 5
8 F Flintoff 3
9 Pollock 2
10 Akram 1
11Murali 4

Jayasuriya was damn close to making it, but I wasn't going to drop Tendulkar or Amla just yet for him. If I had, Butler possibly had to make way, which required too much more thinking while giving ABDV the gloves :P

 

[Burgey]

How do I atone for this grave sin

Go to confession and say six Hail Borders.

 

[trundler]

Buttler for Dhoni and the rest is alright to me.

The ODI format is still evolving and at a pretty rapid pace that we don't have any well-defined metrics. Plus, their isn't a big pool of players which one would think of as an elite tier like their is in tests. ODIs have changed so drastically over the last 3 WCs alone.

 

[trundler]

One other problem though. Freddie Flintoff isn't a proven lower-order slogger. He scored most of his runs up the order.

 

[TheJediBrah]

One other problem though. Freddie Flintoff isn't a proven lower-order slogger. He scored most of his runs up the order.

Batting avge of 32 and bowl avge of 24 is solid af though. He's actually got better bowling stats than Pollock.

You're right about where Flintoff's scored his runs but he's definitely nothing to sneeze at. Not going to argue with anyone who wants him in an ATG ODI side.

edit: just move him up the order to 4 or 5 and move everyone else down. Give him a license at no. 4 even. As long as he doesn't waste time you've lost nothing.

 

[Bolo]

I don't think Buttler has played enough games to include. Dhoni or Gilchrist.

If Watson plays, he must open. Far better at the top. Amla can be dropped without too many issues- his stats are great but he has a habit of making soft runs.

Having Watson plus Klusenar as the 5th bowler doesn't add that much value. Both are rfms of similar quality. I guess you could say that they are both close enough to the best at opening and finishing to include them anyway. Amla and Buttler out. Dhoni and Bevan or Ponting in. Otherwise just drop Watson and have Bevan Ponting and Gilchrist, or Amla, Bevan/Ponting and Dhoni

Tough to leave out the best bowler (McGrath). I think your tail is strong enough to drop Flintoff. I want to keep Akram for variety, and I think Pollock is so close to McGrath in bowling quality as well as handy with the bat that he must play

 

[Mr Miyagi]

I don't think Buttler has played enough games to include. Dhoni or Gilchrist.

If Watson plays, he must open. Far better at the top. Amla can be dropped without too many issues- his stats are great but he has a habit of making soft runs.

Having Watson plus Klusenar as the 5th bowler doesn't add that much value. Both are rfms of similar quality. I guess you could say that they are both close enough to the best at opening and finishing to include them anyway. Amla and Buttler out. Dhoni and Bevan or Ponting in. Otherwise just drop Watson and have Bevan Ponting and Gilchrist, or Amla, Bevan/Ponting and Dhoni

Tough to leave out the best bowler (McGrath). I think your tail is strong enough to drop Flintoff. I want to keep Akram for variety, and I think Pollock is so close to McGrath in bowling quality as well as handy with the bat that he must play

Thanks. May I counter your views without personal offence taken by you?

 

[Bolo]

Thanks. May I counter your views without personal offence taken by you?

You are definitely spending too much time locked in mortal combat with tjb if you need to ask this . Go ahead.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

You are definitely spending too much time locked in mortal combat with tjb if you need to ask this . Go ahead.

Thanks.

Okay - Buttler - first time I have ever thought of him for an ATG side. His SR is off the hook and his average is good. I want that over Dhoni - his contemporary in the middle order- any day of the week with a long tail. (Gilly doesn't get past de Kock imo (setting a trend is legendary and a good artist and all but great artists steal).

Watson - has a great average in the middle order, but still less than Amla and Tendulkar, so he doesn't get to open, (but I would open Watson in t20 only), but in 50 overs he has time to get set, he has shown this previously. ATG.

I don't have Watson and Kluesner as 5th bowler, I have six bowling options and this does add value to any captain. It also covers for injury or bad days. Yes they're rfm, I want a better second spinner, but Jayasuriya aint knocking out Amla or Tnedulkar just yet. Do i need 7 bowling options at the expense of Tendulkar or Amla? Only in Asia at best.

Bevan = no, too slow. (I like his bowling option, though).

Dhoni = no, too slow. I'd have de Kock let alone Buttler both over him. Sorry BCCI. I have seen many a Dhoni six, and I have seen many a Dhoni defensive prod at the wrong time.

McGrath was in my first selected team. But after I dropped Cairns for Flintoff in the lower middle order, I realised that Pollock was good at #9 and as you said " a glitch in the matrix for McGrath", but with much better batting so I dropped McGrath before Akram. So as you say it is batting at 9 with Polly or McGrath's batting, sorry but my team bats to 9 and has 6 genuine bowlers. My weakness - as conceded is the second spinner where Teundulkar is the best. But I could easily swap Akram for Warne where required in Asia. And have 4 fm and 2 spin plus Tendulkar.

beat it

Buttler was the real surprise for me. He has come so far in the last 3 years. So very far. He just wasn't in my reckoning for ATG until recently. But those numbers are damn impressive. Damn impressive.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Tendulkar
Gilchrist
Ponting
Kohli
ABdV
Symonds
Watson
Klusener
Wasim Akram
Muralitharan
McGrath


Rest of squad: Flintoff, Dhoni, Bond, Warne

Left out Bevan in the end even though he probably should be in there, just too hard to compare between eras

edit: Also would have put Lee in for Wasim but didn't want to be to Aus-heavy, but Lee hasn't been talked about enough in this thread. An underrated ODI ATG, deadly with the new ball.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Bevan = no, too slow. (I like his bowling option, though).

Dhoni = no, too slow. I'd have de Kock and Buttler both over him. Sorry BCCI. I have seen many a Dhoni six, and I have seen many a Dhoni defensive prod at the wrong time.

Both have great SR in th first innings. Second innings SR is lower by necessity since they both ensured they stay there till the end and finish the chase.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Both have great SR in th first innings. Second innings SR is lower by necessity since they both ensured they stay there till the end and finish the chase.

Debatable re Bevan.

Better re Dhoni.

Still nowhere near Buttler. He is reinventing the script. He really is. Like it or not. He is so not English. He is like Neil Fairbrother mixed with steroids and meth.

I have Tendulkar and Kohli. Should keep most of the powers that be happy :P

To be honest, Bumrah is the next BCCI player on my list in place of Akram. Yeah.

Kid is like Malinga 2.0. Uglier, worse haircut, but much improved (who though tthis was possible in all honesty without going round arm?) . Akram is on the chopping block if Bumrah keeps it up over 5 more years.

Kohli is terrific, but Bumrah with him is changing the script. Dhoni is just a passenger imo. Jadeja did what he is doing back in the 1990's (not acccusing Dhoni of match fixing like Jadeja was accussed, Jadeja had some real talent in finishing pressure games well but trying to win often, seriously - besides match fixing allegations). Most posters outside oldies or Indian fans aint heard of Jadeja. But those that do, remember him. Because he was remember-able. Dhoni may be loved in India, but I will remember Jadeja more than Dhoni once he retires, in all sincerity and candour. The match fixing accusation, true or not sucks, Jadeja turned games even with 13(3).

 

[srbhkshk]

Tendulkar
Jayasuriya
Kohli
Ponting
ABD
Dhoni
Klusener
Pollock
Akram
Murali
McGrath