Test NZ XI vs India

[hendrix]

See that's the sort of reasoned argument I'd prefer to see. Not 'this average is my basis, I'm ruling him out altogether forever and I won't reconsider' etc.
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OK, first of all I haven't talked about Guptill's monumental technical deficiencies because I already have countless times before. Aside from the fact that he's clueless against spin (great! play him at 5), he tries to straight drive any length that's not short, and more importantly, he plays out in front of his body which means he often gets the apparently "unlucky" leading edges to gully.
This is the exact thing which makes him an excellent ODI player because you can get away with bullying players down the ground. As soon as there are bowlers taller than 6 foot who actually get the ball to bounce off a length he's screwed. He has no scoring option and cannot find the middle of the bat. If you can't fix this over 31 tests, when will you fix it? Flem seems to think he has made an effort to fix it but I'm not so sure. Honestly, I have more faith in Suresh Raina learning to pull Mitchell Johnson. This is a guy who's whole cricketing success has come from being long and tall and thus able to hit school, list A and first class bowlers straight on good length balls. That's his instinct. That's what he does. It doesn't work at test level. You need to let the ball come to you.

But other than that, how can you pick Guptill in the middle order when he's opening in first class cricket?

And so what if Guptill averaged over 60 at number 5? He's scored a 50 against Australia? Man, I bet I can find some damn mediocre players who've done that. 31 tests is plenty of time to look at him.

With all of that said, I'm not opposed to re-evaluating it if he does score mountains of runs domestically. Maybe he has fixed his technique, who knows? I really don't see how you can be sure about that, and to say that he'll be more successful than McCullum without actually having seen him perform to Test quality bowlers is ludicrous given the records of both players at the top level.

 

[Athlai]

You've convinced us Hendrix, we'll get Guppy to open for Tests.

 

[SteveNZ]

OK, first of all I haven't talked about Guptill's monumental technical deficiencies because I already have countless times before. Aside from the fact that he's clueless against spin (great! play him at 5), he tries to straight drive any length that's not short, and more importantly, he plays out in front of his body which means he often gets the apparently "unlucky" leading edges to gully.
This is the exact thing which makes him an excellent ODI player because you can get away with bullying players down the ground. As soon as there are bowlers taller than 6 foot who actually get the ball to bounce off a length he's screwed. He has no scoring option and cannot find the middle of the bat. If you can't fix this over 31 tests, when will you fix it? Flem seems to think he has made an effort to fix it but I'm not so sure. Honestly, I have more faith in Suresh Raina learning to pull Mitchell Johnson. This is a guy who's whole cricketing success has come from being long and tall and thus able to hit school, list A and first class bowlers straight on good length balls. That's his instinct. That's what he does. It doesn't work at test level. You need to let the ball come to you.

But other than that, how can you pick Guptill in the middle order when he's opening in first class cricket?

And so what if Guptill averaged over 60 at number 5? He's scored a 50 against Australia? Man, I bet I can find some damn mediocre players who've done that. 31 tests is plenty of time to look at him.

With all of that said, I'm not opposed to re-evaluating it if he does score mountains of runs domestically. Maybe he has fixed his technique, who knows? I really don't see how you can be sure about that, and to say that he'll be more successful than McCullum without actually having seen him perform to Test quality bowlers is ludicrous given the records of both players at the top level.

See that's all I'm getting at - you simply cannot discount a guy and say 'nah he had 30 Tests to sort it, write the epitaph' when he continues to be far and away the best player in domestic cricket, outside Jesse. I can't be sure of it because I no longer watch FC matches, but I know he has a very good coach with a sharp eye for batting and I'm simply saying if he corrects some faults, or has already, he needs considering again. Our talent pool, or lack thereof, demands it.

And I don't believe that is as an opener, but rather at 5. That can be changed very quickly and accommodated at FC level if desired. So what if he's averaged 60 at #5? So maybe it's his best position...that's what I'm saying. I'm not saying he was a major success there, I'm saying it could be worth another look.

All I'm saying is I would almost bet one of my kidneys McCullum is not heading into a shining twilight of his career where he averages 40-45-50 and maintains the hunger and fitness to be a bonafide Test #5. I also said Jesse is a better bet, but Gup is certainly worth persisting with because we all know we can't just wack a black cap on Jesse's head and expect things to be hunky dorey.

 

[hendrix]

See that's all I'm getting at - you simply cannot discount a guy and say 'nah he had 30 Tests to sort it, write the epitaph' when he continues to be far and away the best player in domestic cricket, outside Jesse. I can't be sure of it because I no longer watch FC matches, but I know he has a very good coach with a sharp eye for batting and I'm simply saying if he corrects some faults, or has already, he needs considering again. Our talent pool, or lack thereof, demands it. .

I'm all for giving players another shot when they dominate domestic cricket, but I think if you put McCullum in the domestic competition he'd also cash in monumentally.
I'm not opposed to Guptill re-entering the test team at some stage but he has to a) be the front-runner in terms of piling on the runs in his position and b) be likely to do better than the player currently in that position. From all the evidence we have, there's no way he's a better batsman than McCullum at the current point in time.

 

[SteveNZ]

I'm all for giving players another shot when they dominate domestic cricket, but I think if you put McCullum in the domestic competition he'd also cash in monumentally.
I'm not opposed to Guptill re-entering the test team at some stage but he has to a) be the front-runner in terms of piling on the runs in his position and b) be likely to do better than the player currently in that position. From all the evidence we have, there's no way he's a better batsman than McCullum at the current point in time.

Fair points. Unfortunately this is the way it plays out: either Rutherford is dropped or Fulton is, the latter being the more likely scenario if he keeps failing. Gup comes back in to open due to weight of runs, and is set up to fail in a position not suited to him.

 

[Hurricane]

He's suited to it at FC level cos that's where he is scoring his runs.

 

[SteveNZ]

He's suited to it at FC level cos that's where he is scoring his runs.

He's suited to opening at FC level for Auckland's needs, because he's head and shoulders above the standard. I would imagine Auckland care for nothing more than batting him there than the ideal balance of the side, even though a lot of us would suggest he's never going to post good numbers opening at Test level. I would suggest, if the #5 slot became open, it would be a lot easier for him to move down there than our penchant for transforming 3s 4s and 5s into openers.

Anyway, his dismissal again in Auckland probably showed why he won't be playing in Test whites any time soon.

 

[Prensel]

So we like Guptil a lot, what is wrong with Latham or Papps?

 

[Hurricane]

@Steve - this will be a lame post Possibly my lamest but here goes. Guptill may have failed yesterday. But he was up for the challenge. He was not underestimating the Windies, And just from his body language and attitude to the inning you could see he was determined to do well for his country. If all he ever does is become one of New Zealand's greatest ever ODI players then I still think that is something. I also believe, just like Skippy had, there will be multiple kicks at the can for him in tests. But there will be a period of time between each run. The kid is a winner in my eyes even if he didn't show it yesterday.

 

[NZTailender]

Most of the batsmen didn't show much yesterday from both sides. I wouldn't read too much into it.

 

[NZTailender]

So we like Guptil a lot, what is wrong with Latham or Papps?

Papps has had a few goes and failed, but he's supposedly had his technique tweaked by super-Siddons and it would appear to ve sgowing results. If he kept going this way and the current duo fail to improve giving Papps another (probably final) chance would be good IMO.

Latham, I guess maybe it's a question of is he ready. He's doing well this season but in the seasons previous he's averaged mid-30s (Rutherford at least had completed a season averaging 80 and scored runs the season he was picked for his Test debut). He's certainly earmarked as a future test player - and captain - but possibly hasn't done enough to jump ahead of the current choice so will have to score a truckload or have one of Rutherford and Fults fail abysmally vs India.

 

[Flem274*]

I don't agree with Guppers at 5. He's a good player and has the talent but he isn't better than Jesse and is maybe behind some others too, plus I'm more worried by his lunging against spin early in his innings more than his tendency to go very hard at the ball in front of his body that has crept into his game over the past couple of years (lets face it, he isn't the first opener to do this and a fair few still made it). If it gets back in it will be opening the batting.

 

[hendrix]

what makes you think it's only crept into his game in the last couple of years?

 

[Flem274*]

Because I've watched him since his test debut.

 

[centurymaker]

Didn't know Tendulkar was a NZ player



http://www.espncricinfo.com/NewZealand/content/player/35320.html

 

[Bahnz]

It's the new cricinfo interface, it automatically connects you to the website of the country that you're in. It's the same reason why yesterday's ODI is still headlining ahead of today's ashes test.

 

[hendrix]

Didn't know Tendulkar was a NZ player

View attachment 21057

Sachin Tendulkar | India Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | ESPN Cricinfo

PEWS to confirm whether or not he's better than Fleming.

 

[SteveNZ]

@Steve - this will be a lame post Possibly my lamest but here goes. Guptill may have failed yesterday. But he was up for the challenge. He was not underestimating the Windies, And just from his body language and attitude to the inning you could see he was determined to do well for his country. If all he ever does is become one of New Zealand's greatest ever ODI players then I still think that is something. I also believe, just like Skippy had, there will be multiple kicks at the can for him in tests. But there will be a period of time between each run. The kid is a winner in my eyes even if he didn't show it yesterday.

Not lame at all mate, it's your take on it. I'd never question Gup's commitment for a second, and I agree on the ODI thing.

There's not a tremendous surprise that he has issues against spin, given he hasn't probably batted long enough against it at Test level and doesn't face good spin at domestic. Exposure is the only thing that will fix that, which isn't really forthcoming in any form (ie an A tour, Indian experience etc)

Anyway, he won't be picked against India at 5, so it's irrelevant. I just think it's worth consideration with Brendon's best days behind him and Jesse not a sure fire thing

 

[Bahnz]

Yeah I don't think anyone has ever questioned Guptill's commitment or tenacity. You don't turn down an IPL contract for a half season of 4 day county cricket if you're just in it for the lolz.