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T2M2 Draft

Fuller Pilch

Hall of Fame Member
Extremely hard choices and all the teams are very good.

Group 1: srb and JOJO
Group 2: ataraxia and Stephen ZA
Group 3: L&L and Teuton
 

anil1405

International Captain
Special mention to ataraxia who has the best bowling unit of all teams and I feel slightly guilty to leave his team out.
 

JOJOXI

International Vice-Captain
Group 2: Stephen ZA & Ataraxia
Group 3: Teuton & Michaelf7777777
Group 4: Fuller Pilch & Stephen

Very competitively matched sides - felt perhaps anil1405 had maybe 1 allrounder too many but on another day may easily have voted for him it was super close and had to give that choice of anil1405 or Stephen a long thought as did like the fact there was variety with the bowling (left-arm spin, offspin, right arm seam and left-arm seam and all solid if not more then solid options with the ball).

More widely think the variety of votes by different people shows how close the sides are!
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Group 2: Stephen ZA & Ataraxia
Group 3: Teuton & Michaelf7777777
Group 4: Fuller Pilch & Stephen

Very competitively matched sides - felt perhaps anil1405 had maybe 1 allrounder too many but on another day may easily have voted for him it was super close and had to give that choice of anil1405 or Stephen a long thought as did like the fact there was variety with the bowling (left-arm spin, offspin, right arm seam and left-arm seam and all solid if not more then solid options with the ball).

More widely think the variety of votes by different people shows how close the sides are!
I guess the choice between my team and anil's team depends on whether you prefer a standard 6/1/4 mix or a team which has more bowling options but less specialists (particularly batsmen). Obviously the way I drafted suggests which way I prefer. Anil's team has a guys averaging in the mid-high 30s batting 5 to 8 and a couple of guys averaging around 20, while my side has a longer tail but better openers and guys at 5 and 6 who averaged 50. Personally I tend to think that in an AT setup, the guys averaging in the 30s are going to be found out more than guys who average in the 50s. Our 3-4 are the most directly comparable positions in our sides with Lara + Azhar being pretty close to Jones + Barrington.

But it is an interesting comparison where there's no objective true answer.
 

JOJOXI

International Vice-Captain
I guess the choice between my team and anil's team depends on whether you prefer a standard 6/1/4 mix or a team which has more bowling options but less specialists (particularly batsmen). Obviously the way I drafted suggests which way I prefer. Anil's team has a guys averaging in the mid-high 30s batting 5 to 8 and a couple of guys averaging around 20, while my side has a longer tail but better openers and guys at 5 and 6 who averaged 50. Personally I tend to think that in an AT setup, the guys averaging in the 30s are going to be found out more than guys who average in the 50s. Our 3-4 are the most directly comparable positions in our sides with Lara + Azhar being pretty close to Jones + Barrington.

But it is an interesting comparison where there's no objective true answer.
I agree about balance being a significant influencer, personally I like a 5th bowling option - its why I went for Stokes quite early even though there were definitely better players still around but I wanted a 5th bowling option and if they could bat in the top 6 that gave me far greater flexibility with the keeper - the plans for the keeper itself shifted quite a bit from Dhoni as planned next pick to possibly ABDV to Watling once the openers I was eyeing up in the 30 caps camp got selected.

I did note you didn't necessarily have a 5th bowler who could be trusted with an extended spell which went against you but I just wondered with anil1405 if they lost a couple of wickets vs the new ball if the level of quality batting was there. Miller perhaps a case he'd average higher in a different era but still felt a bit hesitant about middle-order - think I'd have definitely voted for him if he had just as an example M Hussey or Abbas at 5 replacing Flintoff and Miller dropping down to 6 given I was close to voting for him as his squad is now.

Although of course 1) Easy saying that now, picking up likes of Lara, Miller perhaps meant an Abbas/M Hussey wasn't around and 2) as you highlight its a subjective debate - and the fact many have voted for him highlights that for most the squad has enough going for it - guess this subjectiveness is what makes drafts fun otherwise it would simply be a case of knowing how the draft would go the very minute the draft order is selected if everyone had the same views on players ability/ideal team balance.

Edit - also think age plays a part - had I seen Miller my vote may have gone differently, for example - Stokes average is middling but the fact its on the up and I could see him competing against the very best - not to say he'd suddenly average 50 with the bat but you'd almost say he's better the bigger and tougher the occasion is.
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I agree about balance being a significant influencer, personally I like a 5th bowling option - its why I went for Stokes quite early even though there were definitely better players still around but I wanted a 5th bowling option and if they could bat in the top 6 that gave me far greater flexibility with the keeper - the plans for the keeper itself shifted quite a bit from Dhoni as planned next pick to possibly ABDV to Watling once the openers I was eyeing up in the 30 caps camp got selected.

I did note you didn't necessarily have a 5th bowler who could be trusted with an extended spell which went against you but I just wondered with anil1405 if they lost a couple of wickets vs the new ball if the level of quality batting was there. Miller perhaps a case he'd average higher in a different era but still felt a bit hesitant about middle-order - think I'd have definitely voted for him if he had just as an example M Hussey or Abbas at 5 replacing Flintoff and Miller dropping down to 6 given I was close to voting for him as his squad is now.

Although of course 1) Easy saying that now, picking up likes of Lara, Miller perhaps meant an Abbas/M Hussey wasn't around and 2) as you highlight its a subjective debate - and the fact many have voted for him highlights that for most the squad has enough going for it - guess this subjectiveness is what makes drafts fun otherwise it would simply be a case of knowing how the draft would go the very minute the draft order is selected if everyone had the same views on players ability/ideal team balance.

Edit - also think age plays a part - had I seen Miller my vote may have gone differently, for example - Stokes average is middling but the fact its on the up and I could see him competing against the very best - not to say he'd suddenly average 50 with the bat but you'd almost say he's better the bigger and tougher the occasion is.
I know I'm in the minority but I personally believe that a fifth bowler who does much more than roll their arm over occasionally is kind of unnecessary.

Every modern side pretty much uses the same template of 3 quicks/1 spinner outside Asia (sometimes 2/2 in Asia) unless they have a batsman who is good enough to be that 5th bowler.

England have Stokes, who they often use mostly so they could play Moeen Ali as their "spinner". Bangladesh use Shakib because Shakib is their best batsman and best spinner and they can use all the bowlers they can. South Africa used to use Kallis as their fourth quick at home which often meant they didn't need their spinner in the first innings. The great West Indies sides used to play part time spinners so they could play 4 quicks, but those spinners also were batsmen who would make the side anyway.

The great Aussie sides of the early 00s rarely had a fifth bowler and they're the kind of quality of bowling attacks that we're selecting here.

The first 30 overs will see your top 3 quicks bowl around 10 overs each. The next 50 overs generally sees 25 overs of spin and a rotation of the the quicks until the second new ball, giving each quick roughly 18 overs and the spinner 25 overs before the second new ball. Most innings don't last past 130 odd overs and few sides get to the third new ball. But if the batting side does reach 160 overs a fifth bowler isn't going to add much extra penetration on what must be a road.

So while a genuine 5th bowler is helpful, I'd take Border over Stokes any day of the week. It's only really when someone is as good as Miller that I'll really make the argument for them over a better batsman.
 

JOJOXI

International Vice-Captain
I know I'm in the minority but I personally believe that a fifth bowler who does much more than roll their arm over occasionally is kind of unnecessary.

Every modern side pretty much uses the same template of 3 quicks/1 spinner outside Asia (sometimes 2/2 in Asia) unless they have a batsman who is good enough to be that 5th bowler.

England have Stokes, who they often use mostly so they could play Moeen Ali as their "spinner". Bangladesh use Shakib because Shakib is their best batsman and best spinner and they can use all the bowlers they can. South Africa used to use Kallis as their fourth quick at home which often meant they didn't need their spinner in the first innings. The great West Indies sides used to play part time spinners so they could play 4 quicks, but those spinners also were batsmen who would make the side anyway.

The great Aussie sides of the early 00s rarely had a fifth bowler and they're the kind of quality of bowling attacks that we're selecting here.

The first 30 overs will see your top 3 quicks bowl around 10 overs each. The next 50 overs generally sees 25 overs of spin and a rotation of the the quicks until the second new ball, giving each quick roughly 18 overs and the spinner 25 overs before the second new ball. Most innings don't last past 130 odd overs and few sides get to the third new ball. But if the batting side does reach 160 overs a fifth bowler isn't going to add much extra penetration on what must be a road.

So while a genuine 5th bowler is helpful, I'd take Border over Stokes any day of the week. It's only really when someone is as good as Miller that I'll really make the argument for them over a better batsman.
Point taken I just prefer the extra security of a fifth bowler personally and would argue in the cases of WI and Australia you have 2 of the best sides ever playing against sides more often than not worse than them. Against similar levels of sides think its more likely a partnership really gets stuck in and just personally I'd like the option of another bowling option to allow the other bowlers to be a bit fresher and be able to attack for longer - sometimes see sides almost let the game drift until the 2nd new ball (granted they aren't often sides made up of several ATGs but they also aren't against sides made up of several ATGs the majority of the time) - having Stokes gives an attacking option to try and bring about a breakthrough and depending on whether the pitch is spinning at all on Day 1 or not allow us not to let the game drift too much with MacGill if he isn't threatening too much or if he is doing a good job allow the other seamers to take on a slightly lighter workload - Starc not a stranger to injuries either looking at my side. In my head I had a rough idea of 3 frontline seamers bowling 18 overs, MacGill 22 overs or so and Stokes 14 overs although that is flexible - in the last 5 years Stokes does average 28 with the ball too.

Also think it depends how Stokes is seen - no doubt Border a better player then Stokes but rightly or wrongly I'm probably judging Stokes as better then his averages because a) his average is on the rise as he enters/is in the peak of his career - how much do you predict the future when judging players and squads - if Stokes goes on to average low 40s with the bat and high 20s with the ball think he'll be seen as more appealing in the future. Think more widely its subjective how you rate players currently playing - harsh on players of yesteryear to suddenly say Stokes averages 42 with the bat and 29 with the ball for example before he actually goes on and does it but on the other hand for someone like Labuschagne is he being judged as a batsman averaging 63 probably not with the presumption his average will drop in the future.
 

Teuton

International Captain
I prefer having a wicket taking 5th bowler too fwiw,
That's why everyone gets a vote instead of a single judge
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Given Stokes is peaking now I'm presuming he'll end up with figures around what he has now, unless he retires early or ends up in a cell in Pentonville.

I do think he'll go down as one of the best all rounders in history though. Ideally you'd take Border and Stokes in a side, given the choice, but to choose between the two in an ATG setup depends on the confidence you have in your four main bowlers. Personally I'm of the belief that the higher level the side, the less all rounders matter.
 

JOJOXI

International Vice-Captain
Given Stokes is peaking now I'm presuming he'll end up with figures around what he has now, unless he retires early or ends up in a cell in Pentonville.

I do think he'll go down as one of the best all rounders in history though. Ideally you'd take Border and Stokes in a side, given the choice, but to choose between the two in an ATG setup depends on the confidence you have in your four main bowlers. Personally I'm of the belief that the higher level the side, the less all rounders matter.
Unless he struggles with more injuries and his batting is seen as too crucial to risk his fitness with bowling think his bowling average will go below 30 definitely and if his batting is seen as so crucial that he effectively gives up bowling his batting average would improve by a decent margin you would imagine. But guess the differences in opinion is what makes drafting great you see differing approaches and philosophies.

Think at number 6 too you won't get many top top batsman so in your average draft those options go early after that someone averaging low 40s vs mid/high 30s but can bowl too at a good level the latter is more enticing for me. Of course if you get Sobers or Kallis these debates are avoided entirely lol.
 

StephenZA

Hall of Fame Member
Though Kallis really would bat 4 in most sides.
It is always interesting for me this. I like Kallis at number 3, I think his skills are better adapted for number 3 but he spent 2/3 of his career at 4. But that was because SA had a great number 3 in Amla come along.

When Kirsten dropped from opening, near the end of his career when Smith and Gibbs opened, they tried dropping Kirsten down to 4 and Kallis down to 5 and it just did not work. Before then swapping them back around with Kirsten ending his career at 5? For me Kallis always needs to bat 3 or 4 it just depends on who else you have picked in the team to go along with him. In this draft team team I could probably swap Duleepsinhji and Kallis without changing much.
 

anil1405

International Captain
I was eying Martyn/Kallicharran but left it too late. I prefered Irvine in that round ahead of one of these two coz Irvine is highly rated by his teammates and averaged 40 in FC cricket. I felt he would've been a big upgrade to the likes of foakes or kuruppu etc. Once those two middle order options were gone my focus was on picking a second spinner to go with the sub-continent conditions. Yeah while 5-6 do appear not-so-strong compared to other teams I felt Irvine and Shastri would give good depth to that batting and no.9 is no mug either.
 

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