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South African cricket racism issue: Report implicates Smith, Boucher and de Villiers

T

Tom Flint

International Regular
Is it the general feeling in South africa that once you are guilty of something racist in your past you can never again work in sport for your country?
Is there no way back ever again for anyone from the team in the 90s who joined in with the things that were said to Adams ?
 
S

Stefan9

International Debutant
Tom Flint said:
Is it the general feeling in South africa that once you are guilty of something racist in your past you can never again work in sport for your country?
Is there no way back ever again for anyone from the team in the 90s who joined in with the things that were said to Adams ?
Click to expand...
Depends which demographic section of the population you ask.

There has been a high profile guys where such allegations have come out while coaching. The only other one I can think of was Andre Markgraff. Who resigned from the springboks after a audio tape came out.
He did coach again but never again at international level.

Boucher's media friends and legal team are doing a good job as painting it as a witch hunt against him though so might turn out different.
 
StephenZA

StephenZA

Hall of Fame Member
Tom Flint said:
Is it the general feeling in South africa that once you are guilty of something racist in your past you can never again work in sport for your country?
Is there no way back ever again for anyone from the team in the 90s who joined in with the things that were said to Adams ?
Click to expand...
It is about remorse. The biggest issue here is that Boucher (and Smith) have not come across in anyway as genuinely apologetic for the remarks he made. To a certain extent hiding behind legal procedure.

Two ways to look at that; either he genuinely thinks that nothing wrong really occurred and trying to fight what he considers an injustice (a stance I totally disagree with); or they are aware and has learnt from his experience but due to circumstance are finding it difficult to openly admit due to legal ramifications and potential fallout. On the second part is the witch hunt, that is definitely occurring. The heavily racialised political nature and also money grabbing elements within CSA (and outside) that don't like Boucher and/or Smith in charge for various personal and political reasons are trying to get him dismissed. Every time Boucher succeeds in a tour both he and Smith strengthen their position and those political elements can't have that.

So from an outside point of view its difficult to know if Boucher is genuinely remorseful and understands why he is being taken to task over his actions, while also acknowledging there is a definite witch hunt going on that is using these events as a stick to try get him removed. Hopefully the hearings will shed light on this. I said from the beginning its was terrible optics the way Smith got the job and then hired the old boys club, even if it was being done for genuine cricket reasons. It at best comes across as very naïve.
 
Dendarii

Dendarii

International Debutant
StephenZA said:
On the second part is the witch hunt, that is definitely occurring. The heavily racialised political nature and also money grabbing elements within CSA (and outside) that don't like Boucher and/or Smith in charge for various personal and political reasons are trying to get him dismissed. Every time Boucher succeeds in a tour both he and Smith strengthen their position and those political elements can't have that.
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On that point, here's an article by Neil Manthorp where he gives a different side to the charges against Boucher:

mannersoncricket.substack.com

Let’s talk about Mark

Is South Africa’s head coach a ‘dead man walking’? Is it just a matter of time before the paperwork is finalised and he is dismissed? The tone of the seven-page charge sheet issued by his employers, Cricket South Africa, would indicate that the relationship between them has irretrievably broken...
mannersoncricket.substack.com mannersoncricket.substack.com

He doesn't address the Adams incident, but I'm not so sure that's what they're using as their main ammunition against Boucher. It's the part of this which got the most publicity, but they're also going after him for things which happened during this tenure as coach, which seems stronger grounds than something which happened over 20 years ago. Although that's obviously still problematic and Boucher's handling of it has left a lot to be desired.

Manthorp does admit to not being unbiased since he ghost-wrote Boucher's autobiography, so I'm not sure how much stock to place in the article, but this is definitely a messy situation and not doing South African cricket any favours.
 
StephenZA

StephenZA

Hall of Fame Member
What will be interesting is to find out what Nkwe actually said, and if Boucher has a genuine rebuttal (also Bavuma, who seems to support Boucher). I do believe that Nkwe was treated badly, but that was more Smith, than Bouchers doing, in my opinion. Time will tell, the fact that he gets to go to NZ and that the case was allowed to only go ahead in May tells me that they don't have much against him. But that also does not mean that Boucher is innocent of poor understanding and ignoring concerns that he considers unimportant.
 
Coronis

Coronis

Cricketer Of The Year
StephenZA said:
It is about remorse. The biggest issue here is that Boucher (and Smith) have not come across in anyway as genuinely apologetic for the remarks he made. To a certain extent hiding behind legal procedure.

Two ways to look at that; either he genuinely thinks that nothing wrong really occurred and trying to fight what he considers an injustice (a stance I totally disagree with); or they are aware and has learnt from his experience but due to circumstance are finding it difficult to openly admit due to legal ramifications and potential fallout. On the second part is the witch hunt, that is definitely occurring. The heavily racialised political nature and also money grabbing elements within CSA (and outside) that don't like Boucher and/or Smith in charge for various personal and political reasons are trying to get him dismissed. Every time Boucher succeeds in a tour both he and Smith strengthen their position and those political elements can't have that.

So from an outside point of view its difficult to know if Boucher is genuinely remorseful and understands why he is being taken to task over his actions, while also acknowledging there is a definite witch hunt going on that is using these events as a stick to try get him removed. Hopefully the hearings will shed light on this. I said from the beginning its was terrible optics the way Smith got the job and then hired the old boys club, even if it was being done for genuine cricket reasons. It at best comes across as very naïve.
Click to expand...
Smith has nothing to be remorseful for, unless anything new has come to light, no?
 
S

Stefan9

International Debutant
StephenZA said:
What will be interesting is to find out what Nkwe actually said, and if Boucher has a genuine rebuttal (also Bavuma, who seems to support Boucher). I do believe that Nkwe was treated badly, but that was more Smith, than Bouchers doing, in my opinion. Time will tell, the fact that he gets to go to NZ and that the case was allowed to only go ahead in May tells me that they don't have much against him. But that also does not mean that Boucher is innocent of poor understanding and ignoring concerns that he considers unimportant.
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Not convinced bavuma supports boucher. He has complained about off field issues making it difficult for the team but he hasn't come out in support of boucher like elgar did before the India series. My understanding is he is very close to nkwe, went to talk to him after he resigned.
 
S

Stefan9

International Debutant
Coronis said:
And from what I read in the report he followed the guidelines he was given and appointed Boucher completely legally
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Up for debate. Guidelines said he can appoint who he wants but the national coaching guidelines at CSA states one needs a level 4 coaching certificate for the position. Boucher didn't have this.

Smith should have updated this before appointing boucher.

The optics of appointing your under qualified buddy also doesn't look good.
 
Coronis

Coronis

Cricketer Of The Year
Stefan9 said:
Up for debate. Guidelines said he can appoint who he wants but the national coaching guidelines at CSA states one needs a level 4 coaching certificate for the position. Boucher didn't have this.

Smith should have updated this before appointing boucher.

The optics of appointing your under qualified buddy also doesn't look good.
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May not have been the smartest decision no, I didn’t know about the coaching certificate thing, someone definitely should’ve caught that. Still doesn’t seem like any of that has any racial undertones, which is what I was initially referring to.
 
S

Stefan9

International Debutant
Coronis said:
May not have been the smartest decision no, I didn’t know about the coaching certificate thing, someone definitely should’ve caught that. Still doesn’t seem like any of that has any racial undertones, which is what I was initially referring to.
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What they will try to argue regarding Smith is that the appointment was racially motivated as temporary coach nkwe was black while smith's guy boucher was white.

The case against Smith for me is flimsy concerning the racial angle.
 
S

Stefan9

International Debutant
Interesting I wonder why it would be legally incorrect to suspend them? Was under the impression that's what usually happens when someone is charged with gross misconduct.

Wonder what charges smith is sorting out through arbitration. Seems CSA wants to keep him but get rid of boucher.

www.espncricinfo.com

CSA won't investigate Smith, Boucher appointments

Boucher will still face a disciplinary hearing in May over charges of gross misconduct
www.espncricinfo.com www.espncricinfo.com

Edit:Oops seems I spoke too soon. He has to reapply.

www.sacricketmag.com

CSA to advertise Graeme Smith's position

CSA director of cricket Graeme Smith will have to reapply for his position when his contract concludes at the end of March.
www.sacricketmag.com www.sacricketmag.com
 
Dendarii

Dendarii

International Debutant
Stefan9 said:
Interesting I wonder why it would be legally incorrect to suspend them?
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I can't speak as to why Boucher hasn't been suspended, but it doesn't look as though Smith has been charged with anything, so there's no grounds to suspend him. His picking Boucher may have been dodgy, but it sounds as though the final decision rested with the board, so it would be awkward charging Smith alone for anything related to that.

Wonder what charges smith is sorting out through arbitration.
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Maybe the things his lawyer raised?

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/...aims-fundamental-flaws-in-sjn-process-1293622
 
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