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Simon Katich

NUFAN

Y no Afghanistan flag
:huh: What a bizarre thing to say. This thread isn't a shrine.
It wasn't so bizarre what I said, I just thought the thread would be solely about Katich not just a quirky debate.

Of course he can't. I'm a goalkeeper myself, same way I'm a bowler - there are times when a shot gives you no chance whatsoever of stopping it. Some shots, or other situations, no goalkeeper, however good, can do anything to stop the ball hitting the back of the net.

It's an almost exactly analogous situation, the only difference being that in football the ball is always in play (except when it's out of play) whereas in cricket play comes in distinctly defined packets and for most of the time the ball is dead. It's always the same pattern in each packet: bowler bowls, batsman either plays a stroke or leaves, fielder (most often wicketkeeper) fields. In football there's no such definition, it's all completely random and there's no repeated pattern.
So a football goalkeeper has never made a fine save?
Exhibit 1 of 1: YouTube - Mark Schwarzer awesome Penalty save vs China (Believe the commentator said Schwarzer you are the best you made brilliant save).
 

Top_Cat

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That, of course, doesn't say anything much about Katich being better or worse as a opener.
Aside from the fact his average is 50% better with three times as many tons in half the number of Tests. Total coincidence, of course.

15 Tests is a bit more than a run of form, especially since it's settled down a bit of late. He's still getting past 50 fairly regularly, though.

Either way, Katich is on record as saying that his preferred batting position is three, but that he'd rather open than bat six.
If you're a decent player, no matter where you bat, you'll do well. Tons of examples of guys who've started in different positions in the order than they started. Tons of examples of it going the other way too. Kat's a good enough player these days it wouldn't matter where he batted.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
It wasn't so bizarre what I said, I just thought the thread would be solely about Katich not just a quirky debate
That's not the way CW.n works, nor any decent forum. Discussion evolves.
So a football goalkeeper has never made a fine save?
Exhibit 1 of 1: YouTube - Mark Schwarzer awesome Penalty save vs China (Believe the commentator said Schwarzer you are the best you made brilliant save).
I'm really not sure what you're getting at. A fine save is different to stopping a ball you cannot stop because its path is at such an angle \ pace that you are unable to reach it.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Aside from the fact his average is 50% better with three times as many tons in half the number of Tests. Total coincidence, of course.
It could be; it could not be. There is no way to be either certain the opening has made a difference, nor certain it has not.
If you're a decent player, no matter where you bat, you'll do well. Tons of examples of guys who've started in different positions in the order than they started. Tons of examples of it going the other way too. Kat's a good enough player these days it wouldn't matter where he batted.
I've seen enough examples to disprove this, to me. Maybe you should do well wherever you bat if you're a decent batsman, but it certainly doesn't always happen, nor close to.

Either way, while someone may be short of being out-of-depth in a certain position they can quite easily be well short of the production they would\do manage in another one.
 
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NUFAN

Y no Afghanistan flag
That's not the way CW.n works, nor any decent forum. Discussion evolves.

I'm really not sure what you're getting at. A fine save is different to stopping a ball you cannot stop because its path is at such an angle \ pace that you are unable to reach it.
Meh all I'm saying is it takes two to tango.

Cricket would survive better without bowlers then without batters. :mellow:
 

Top_Cat

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It could be; it could not be. There is no way to be either certain the opening has made a difference, nor certain it has not.

I've seen enough examples to disprove this, to me. Maybe you should do well wherever you bat if you're a decent batsman, but it certainly doesn't always happen, nor close to.

Either way, while someone may be short of being out-of-depth in a certain position they can quite easily be well short of the production they would\do manage in another one.
Yeah it's interesting how just changing someone's position in the order can change them completely as a player. Everyone remembers Michael Slater being a rubbish ODI player. What they might not remember was the couple of half-tons he hit at 6 in his last stint as a ODI player. Totally changed the way he played the game; instead of trying to spank the bowling, he Bevvo'ed the ball around, scored at a decent clip and looked a far better player. Had he been tried in that way earlier, I reckon he'd have had a longer ODI career.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Meh all I'm saying is it takes two to tango.
Not sure you are TBPH, but I doubt we'll get much more mileage out of this, so leave it there. :)
Cricket would survive better without bowlers then without batters. :mellow:
Nah, it'd not survive without either. But at least watching bowlers bowling at stumps is better than watching batsmen stand there waiting for a delivery that never comes down.
 

NUFAN

Y no Afghanistan flag
Nah, it'd not survive without either. But at least watching bowlers bowling at stumps is better than watching batsmen stand there waiting for a delivery that never comes down.
Big LOL at work, just picturing a day at the cricket where the batsman are standing there waiting for a ball to be bowled.

I was thinking you could always use a bowling machine, it'd be still kind of interesting. Don't think they've invented a batting machine yet unless you consider Bradman one.
 

Golaxi

School Boy/Girl Captain
katich got taken by rashid lol

he has a rubbish record in england, was the worst player last home series. i heard he's improved though
 

Uppercut

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Steyn rarely bowls in the areas that trouble any LHBs. For someone so deadly against RHBs, it's remarkable how poor he often is when the batsman faces the other way.
I agree, but Steyn did get Katich plenty of times in the last couple of series though. Hussey too. He's certainly improved in that area to some extent.
 

Noble One

International Vice-Captain
katich got taken by rashid lol

he has a rubbish record in england, was the worst player last home series. i heard he's improved though
1389 runs @ 53.42 at Test level since his return. Has been one of the top opening batsman in the world for the past one a half years, and you have only just heard he has improved?

6 below average Test matches in England spread over 4 years does not indicate a poor cricketer. He was below par in 2005, but he is not the first batsman to ever hit a slump and struggle against high quality swing bowling.

How about his record in England playing for various county teams, 4333 runs @ 55.51. Pretty decent record in English conditions. Not many county cricketers running around with that sort of record at home?
 

andyc

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Of course he can't. I'm a goalkeeper myself, same way I'm a bowler - there are times when a shot gives you no chance whatsoever of stopping it. Some shots, or other situations, no goalkeeper, however good, can do anything to stop the ball hitting the back of the net.
Sorry Richard, I have to disagree. Every shot can be saved one way or another, and every ball in cricket can dismiss the batsman or be kept out. A bullet going top right corner could have been saved if the keeper was standing nearer to the right post and had better anticipation, for example. Likewise, it's just wrong when a commentator gushes that 'no one could have kept that one out' when a batsman gets out. Really grinds my gears, actually.
 

Top_Cat

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Sorry Richard, I have to disagree. Every shot can be saved one way or another, and every ball in cricket can dismiss the batsman or be kept out. A bullet going top right corner could have been saved if the keeper was standing nearer to the right post and had better anticipation, for example. Likewise, it's just wrong when a commentator gushes that 'no one could have kept that one out' when a batsman gets out. Really grinds my gears, actually.
I'd guess they don't mean comments like that to be taken literally.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Sorry Richard, I have to disagree. Every shot can be saved one way or another, and every ball in cricket can dismiss the batsman or be kept out. A bullet going top right corner could have been saved if the keeper was standing nearer to the right post and had better anticipation, for example. Likewise, it's just wrong when a commentator gushes that 'no one could have kept that one out' when a batsman gets out. Really grinds my gears, actually.
What you overlook is realistic and unrealistic. Yes, there is indeed a theoretical chance that anything can be kept out or let in, either as a goalkeeper or batsman, but in practice there are plenty of things both have no realistic chance to keep out.

It is indeed wrong to call a delivery an "unplayable delivery" because if a batsman plays a rank terrible shot he could quite conceivably strike off the middle of the bat a delivery that'd dismiss anyone playing a more appropriate shot. That's why I always use the term "realistically unplayable delivery" and say "no batsman could realistically have kept that out".
 

.matt

School Boy/Girl Captain
That won't be his last 100. With Hughes at the other end he knows he takes responsibilty and he took it well in this innings. He is such a cool head, so calm at the crease. It takes some good balls to get him so if you get a chance you need to take it. He'll pick up a lot more of these scores this series.
 

Top_Cat

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That won't be his last 100. With Hughes at the other end he knows he takes responsibilty and he took it well in this innings. He is such a cool head, so calm at the crease. It takes some good balls to get him so if you get a chance you need to take it. He'll pick up a lot more of these scores this series.
The big change, to me, appears to be technical and in his decision-making. Hasn't had big foot movements for a while now and is really clear on which balls to play at or leave. Has turned into a thorough pro with the bat. Genuine danger man for England for the rest of the series. Especially since England put so much effort into scaring little Hughsie back to the pavillion, they forgot about Kat.
 

Jakester1288

International Regular
That won't be his last 100. With Hughes at the other end he knows he takes responsibilty and he took it well in this innings. He is such a cool head, so calm at the crease. It takes some good balls to get him so if you get a chance you need to take it. He'll pick up a lot more of these scores this series.
I agree. He reminds me of Justin Langer now. Gritty, tough, determined.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Especially since England put so much effort into scaring little Hughsie back to the pavillion, they forgot about Kat.
I doubt it. I just imagine their best chance of dismissing him - swing - refused to come into play.
 

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