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Ricky Ponting - most wins as player and captain

What does the milestone mean ?

  • Both a better captain than Waugh and better cricketer than Warne

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    47
  • Poll closed .

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Actually he wasn't that great in 2004.

Here are his bowling figures

1st Test - 28 overs 78/2
32 overs 115/2 (India all out for 239)

2nd Test - 42 overs 125/6 (His wickets were Yuvraj, Pathan, Parthiv, Kumble, Bhajji, Sehwag) Even in this match the middle order got out to Gillespie and Kasper.


3rd Test - 23 overs 47/2
14 overs 56/2

It was an ok series for him. He got Laxman 3 times Sehwag twice and Yuvraj once. It wasn't anywhere near great but not bad either. It was mainly the pacers who got to India.
Which is basically the point. To win in IND since IND became a force at home has been with pace. Warne's role in 2004 series was not to be the main wicket-taking threat, it was back-up McGrath/Dizzy/Kasper. As i said before when he was needed to step in the only innings of the series the pace trio struggled for wickets in the Chennai test he took 6 wickets.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Just to consider '98 alone; no other opener ever really went after Warne like Sidhu did. Was such gutsy but aggressive play. And, Warne also had to contend with Sachin landing big turning balls from outside leg over the wide mid-wicket fence which, again, very few players have the skill and confidence to pull off. Cronje did, to an extent, even during Warne's early peak. To Warne's credit, I don't remember him dropping his head at all and he kept throwing it up there. Just that what he was sending down wasn't good enough to beat top players at the peaks of their form in conditions that they knew very well.
Very true. IND batsmen have proven with their domination of both Warne & Murali @ home that spin can't beat them. Its always pace attacks.

Another key reason why Warne struggled in 98 was because he was the lone ranger as well. No McGrath. Dizzy or Fleming. Warne was defiantely at his peak in 98, but you contrast that 98 series with what he did as a lone ranger i the 2005 Ashes. He spun through ENG because ENG can't play spin, he couldn't do that to IND in 98 without McGrath & co. In 2004 when he was fit with a quality pace attack to deal with the IND top-order, we saw him perform at his best in IND.

2001 was similar except it was different players going after him. Laxman batted well in 1998 but was unbelievable in 2001. The top players still played him well and blew out his figures but he bowled pretty well to the lesser lights, especially well in Mumbai.
He was ok in that Mumbai 1st test yea, but Warne lets not forget before that IND 01 series had not played a a test in about for a year since the 2000 NZ Tour coming off his second injury during the post IND 98 to 2001 period. He barely played 2 FC game for Victoria. He went into that IND series basically bowling to the woeful windies & Zimbabwe in ODIs, which is was not good preparation at all.

Warne bowling lacked alot of zip, his googly of 93-97 was gone due to those two injuries between post IND 98 to IND 2001. He didn't start to regain himself until during the 2001 Ashes.
 
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Sanz

Hall of Fame Member

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Haa dont bring that "you are Shane Warne" argument to make it seem as if Warne was supposed to spin out India. 30.07 is not poor series average under any circumstances for any bowler.
It is P-O-O-R, even Jason Krejza has a better bowling average than that in India . Warne was backed by a great pace attack, Tendulkar injured and out of form, Dysfunctional Indian team torn by internal politics and he still couldn't manage a decent average.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Another key reason why Warne struggled in 98 was because he was the lone ranger as well. No McGrath. Dizzy or Fleming. Warne was defiantely at his peak in 98, but you contrast that 98 series with what he did as a lone ranger i the 2005 Ashes.
He spun through ENG because ENG can't play spin, he couldn't do that to IND in 98 without McGrath & co. In 2004 when he was fit with a quality pace attack to deal with the IND top-order, we saw him perform at his best in IND.
In 1998 Gavin Robertson performed better than Warne. And surprise surprise, Gavin diddn't have much support either.

As for lone ranger in Ashes 2005, England won two matches Mcgrath Didn't play.
 

Top_Cat

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In 1998 Gavin Robertson performed better than Warne. And surprise surprise, Gavin diddn't have much support either.
Wasn't even considered good enough for the NSW side at that point too, literally was plucked out of grade cricket having played virtually no first-class cricket in ages. And he scored runs!
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
I'm talking about winning series not just test. The SA quicks who did the most damage during that series. Another example would be Windies 83/84

It is fairly unanimous that Saqlain in 99 was the only spinner to really dominant IND at home, given the common wisdom that off-spinners tend to do better than leg-spinners/wrist spinners in IND. So this is irrelevant example to how Warne or even Murali performaned in IND.

[/QUOTE]

This series was drawn, again we talking about series win in IND when they where a force at home.

If not we would have to include Shaul Udal @ Mumbai 06 as well when ENG drew 1-1 7 even then it was the ENG seamers (Hoggard & Flintoff) who did the most damage.


It is P-O-O-R, even Jason Krejza has a better bowling average than that in India.
8-):laugh:

Oh we judging players now based on ONLY test performances. Well if thats the pace Andy Gaunteume is the greatest batsman of all time since he averages more than Bradman based on one test.

Warne was backed by a great pace attack, Tendulkar injured and out of form, Dysfunctional Indian team torn by internal politics and he still couldn't manage a decent average.

You bringing up this nonsense that the Indian team was disfunctional blah blah. That didn't stop McGrath/Dizzy/Kasper from owning, Dravid, Laxman, Ganguly. Yuvraj & Sehwag to a level (although he was best IND batsman of the series) technically. Thats why IND lost - no other reason.

As i said before the only thing "disfunctional" that i remember occuring was before the Nagpur test, when Ganguly & the groudsman had some altercation, but thats about it.

Only Tendy gets an excuse for being out of form due to his tennis elbow woes. But its not as if a fully fit Tendy would have stopped AUS from winning, he may have stood up like he usually did, but the McGrath/Dizzy/Kasper would have still faield the rest.





In 1998 Gavin Robertson performed better than Warne. And surprise surprise, Gavin diddn't have much support either.
:laugh: WTF. Are you out of your mind, dont get ridiculous. Both of them where equally smoked in that series, i dont know what i god's name you where watching. Warne's spell in the first innings of the 1st test was the best bowling between him & Robertson that series.

As for lone ranger in Ashes 2005, England won two matches Mcgrath Didn't play.
WTFFF Excuse me?? :laugh:. Sir McGrath after the 1st test @ Lord's was never reached back 100% after that injury he suffered before the 2nd test.

Lee was excellent some days, utter garbage on others.

Gillespie was trash

Kasper was poor

Tait young raw not very effective

Warne was the ONLY bowler who maintained CONSISTENT pressure for AUS in every innings of every test after Lord's.

Clearly you didn't watch the Ashes, if i have to explain this to you.


Finally i dont think you understood the comparison i drew between him being a lone ranger in 98 & 2005.

In IND 98 with no proper fast-bowlers to deal witht he IND openers, Warne on many occassions would come into bowl with openers already set. When ideally for him any spinner they would want to come into with the middle-order exposed with 2-3 wickets down.

The Indian batsmen given how excellent they where againts spin, Warne was incapable of dragging things back for AUS - thus he was smoked.

We compare that to what happened in 2005 Ashes. Many times Trescothick/Strauss got ENG off to superb starts againts inconsitent/crap new ball bowling. But Warne this time was able to drag things back since ENG unlike IND always where vulnerable to spin. Thus he single handed kept ENG batsmen in check with no consistent support.

Are you following me here uncle??
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
I'm talking about winning series not just test. The SA quicks who did the most damage during that series.
Obviously you have no clue about that series. The series vs. Pakistan in 1998-99 was a 3 test match series, 3 test was made part of the ACC and hence doesn't show up under Pakistan Vs. India Test series, but it was the same tour, to unless you want to do nit picking Pakistan won the 1998-99 test series.



It is fairly unanimous that Saqlain in 99 was the only spinner to really dominant IND at home, given the common wisdom that off-spinners tend to do better than leg-spinners/wrist spinners in IND. So this is irrelevant example to how Warne or even Murali performaned in IND.
It is an irrelevant example because it doesn't suit your theory of excuses.
 

MrIncredible

U19 Cricketer
Although i believe SHane Warne is the best cricketer of the last 20s yrs its fairly obvious he got owned by India (no excuses) but thats nothing to be ashamed of. Every great has their bogey team/countrY:

Lara: India
Tendy : South Africa
Ambrose: India (in WI)
Walsh: Oz
Warne: India
Murali: India (away) and Oz (away)
Mcgrath: NZ/RSA (home)
Ponting: India (away)
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
But its not as if a fully fit Tendy would have stopped AUS from winning, he may have stood up like he usually did, but the McGrath/Dizzy/Kasper would have still faield the rest.
Thanks for proving my point by leaving out Warne out of the bowlers who were real threats to Indian batsmen in that series.

Aussie win was fully deserved and I give the Aussie team full credit for their success. my point was and is that Warne's performance was average and a non factor in that series win. In the Test matches that Australia won in 2004-05 series, Warne's average was 37.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Although i believe SHane Warne is the best cricketer of the last 20s yrs its fairly obvious he got owned by India (no excuses) but thats nothing to be ashamed of. Every great has their bogey team/countrY:
Point is Warne got owned by India in India, in Australia, In Sharjah, in England, In SriLanka (Last 3 in ODIs), no matter what the format/location was. He got owned by India big time.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Although i believe SHane Warne is the best cricketer of the last 20s yrs its fairly obvious he got owned by India (no excuses) but thats nothing to be ashamed of. Every great has their bogey team/countrY:

Lara: India
Tendy : South Africa
Ambrose: India (in WI)
Walsh: Oz
Warne: India
Murali: India (away) and Oz (away)
Mcgrath: NZ/RSA (home)
Ponting: India (away)
True, every great does have his bogey team and that is overlooked a lot. Still, the difference between Warne and the above is that Warne really did have career changing/threatening injuries. Maybe you contend that he still wouldn't have done well, but I think there should be little argument that he would have done much better than his current record suggests.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Had gr8 players around him.. Dont rate him as anything special as a leader or a tactician but kept a bunch of superstar players together.. Ensured the ego hassles never got out of hand. Is a great player himself... Hence commands a lot of respect from his team mates. Seems like his captaincy is absent of nepotism and favoritism for the most part. Deserves the record. Tremendous achievement. Congrats Punter!!!
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Obviously you have no clue about that series. The series vs. Pakistan in 1998-99 was a 3 test match series, 3 test was made part of the ACC and hence doesn't show up under Pakistan Vs. India Test series, but it was the same tour, to unless you want to do nit picking Pakistan won the 1998-99 test series.
Huh?:huh:. I'm not sure what you mean here. Why are you talking about a IND vs PAK test in a quote i made about the 2000 IND vs SA series?

But anyway that PAK vs IND Chennai test you quoted, is answered below..


It is an irrelevant example because it doesn't suit your theory of excuses.
You dont have to believe me cricinfo & see ever since IND became a force @ home. How many opposition leg-spinners or wrist spinners have won series in India. You wont find any since Benaud 59/60 @ that was when IND where not great yet. Its always off-spinners or left-arm spinners.



Thanks for proving my point by leaving out Warne out of the bowlers who were real threats to Indian batsmen in that series.
HA, dont make if sound it Warne was NEVER a threat. The only time in the 3 test Warne played in the 04/05 when the fast-men where struggling to get any assistance from the pitch i.e the Chennai first innings, Warne stood up & took 6 wickets.

Plus Warne troubled laxman alot. I'm sure you forgotten that BIG leg-break that bowled him out in the Bangalore 1st innings. One of the best deliveries Warne has ever bowled.

Aussie win was fully deserved and I give the Aussie team full credit for their success. my point was and is that Warne's performance was average and a non factor in that series win.
See above.

In the Test matches that Australia won in 2004-05 series, Warne's average was 37.
8-). Are you mad man? :laugh:. How in the hell are you going to filter out top quality performances from players just because their team lost or drew a test??

Based on this ignorance great individual test performances like:

- Akhtar 5/22 vs AUS Colombo 02
- Lara's 225 vs AUS Adelaide 05
- Tendulkar 169 vs SA 96
- Ponting 156 vs ENG 05
- Pietersen 158 vs AUS 05
- Lara series batting in SRI 01
- Astle 222 vs ENG 02
- Sehwag 317 vs SA 08

etc etc

All would have be discredited 8-)


Sanz said:
Point is Warne got owned by India in India, in Australia, In Sharjah, in England, In SriLanka (Last 3 in ODIs), no matter what the format/location was. He got owned by India big time.
Firstly 90% of those performances in test & ODIs came either when he was during his injury period of post IND 98 to IND 01. You need to accept this.

note: Warne never played an ODI againts IND after the 2000/01 tour. Plus i also remember in the famous 96 WC clash between the two teams - Warne bowling quite well.

Secondly or when he didn't have bowling support in IND as i explained before. You need to understand the important of this.

Its is undernaible that IND played Warne better than anybody especially at home, thats clear. Even with the key dynamics as i've explained to you before with bowling support of great attack/pace attack, along with him being fully-fit in 2004 he was solid - you maintaining he was poor in that 04/05 series is utter crap.

Your problem & most critics problem is that you seem to feel or wanted to see Warne RUN through IND especially in IND because he is "Shane Warne" is nonsense - since as i showed you above leg-spinners since IND have become a force @ home have never dominated IND over a series in IND. What wins in IND is quality pace attack - the role of spinner (especially leg-spinners) historically has always been to give support - not to be a MAIN wicket-taking threat.

I dont hear too many bashing Murali's record in IND when it is just as bad Warne & circumstances for being bad is just as similar. Which is lack of quality pace attack to back him up (except for 2005 where averaged similar to Warne in 2004) & form woes in the recent 2009 series, just like Warne in 2001.
 
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Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
I dont hear too many bashing Murali's record in IND when it is just as bad Warne & circumstances for being bad is just as similar. Which is lack of quality pace attack to back him up (except for 2005 where averaged similar to Warne in 2004) & form woes in the recent 2009 series, just like Warne in 2001.
Murali's fan rarely make excuses for his poor performances in India/Australia. And no one is bashing Warne here, simply stating my opinion.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Murali's fan rarely make excuses for his poor performances in India/Australia.
HA, i see you forgottem the famous Murali vs Warne discussion thread on this site..

And no one is bashing Warne here, simply stating my opinion.
Your opinion is similar to many critics of Warne's record in IND & vs IND. Which has always been a gross mischaracterization.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Wasn't even considered good enough for the NSW side at that point too, literally was plucked out of grade cricket having played virtually no first-class cricket in ages. And he scored runs!
What ever happened to Robertson after the 98 tour to Pakistan?. I always liked his potential as on offspinner i reckon he was as good as Swann to be dead honest.

Although he was 31/32 when he first played, given that both Miller & Hogg got chances very late, Robertson could have been a useful off-spinner in tests IMO during the 2000s for AUS.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
I think you'd have to go back to the 60's, without actually looking
Oz didn't lose an Ahses series in that whole decade, tragically.

Re: Punter: great player; pretty ordinary captain, in all honesty. Think he reached his nadir as skipper when he bowled the part-timers to save himself a ban for a slow over rate rather than try to force the win versus the yarps. Should've fallen on his sword then, IMHO.
 

MrIncredible

U19 Cricketer
Point is Warne got owned by India in India, in Australia, In Sharjah, in England, In SriLanka (Last 3 in ODIs), no matter what the format/location was. He got owned by India big time.
I agree and any number of excuses by some on this board is really pointless. Otherwise we might as well start to analyse y Lara failed vs India, y tendy struggles vs RSa, y Murali had probs in Oz etc.
 

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