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***Official*** New Zealand in Bangladesh & Sri Lanka 2013

Flem274*

123/5
Haha yeah doesn't this happen annually?

He should probably be asked to achieve a season sub-25 average in English cricket and to dominate NZ domestix (something he's never done iirc) to get another look in. 46 @ 28 is one of those things where on face value it looks like he bowled decently without being outstanding. We haven't seen a single ball though.
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
Haha yeah doesn't this happen annually?

He should probably be asked to achieve a season sub-25 average in English cricket and to dominate NZ domestix (something he's never done iirc) to get another look in. 46 @ 28 is one of those things where on face value it looks like he bowled decently without being outstanding. We haven't seen a single ball though.
To give him his dues, he's been the best spinner in the first division of the CC by miles. It's also funny to see him doing so well with the bat given that his gutless displays v SA probably played a larger part in his axing than his bowling did.
 

RxGM

U19 Vice-Captain
To give him his dues, he's been the best spinner in the first division of the CC by miles. It's also funny to see him doing so well with the bat given that his gutless displays v SA probably played a larger part in his axing than his bowling did.
I always found that a bit harsh, he had a game plan to score runs which was to back away, something Vettori has done for years, if McHesson had an issue with it during the series they should have said something, he still managed to score more runs in that series than Doug "looks good in the nets" Bracewell.
If he was ever going to play again though surely it was going to be in leeds (rather than play 4 seamers on a dry deck), but he has just really fallen out of favour - partially because they think Williamson is a good enough spinner.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
it was also about the drinking incident in queens town after an England XI tour game.

Agree that he's been treated harshly. The team was bowled out for 47 ffs. Methinks they found an escape goat.
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
I always found that a bit harsh, he had a game plan to score runs which was to back away, something Vettori has done for years, if McHesson had an issue with it during the series they should have said something, he still managed to score more runs in that series than Doug "looks good in the nets" Bracewell.
If he was ever going to play again though surely it was going to be in leeds (rather than play 4 seamers on a dry deck), but he has just really fallen out of favour - partially because they think Williamson is a good enough spinner.
Yeah, so did I. At the end of the day, he did no worse with the bat than Chris Martin has done for years and he's not going to have to deal with a bowling attack that good any time soon (I don't think our next series v SA is until about 2016). He was fine in India, and bowled well without being properly rewarded in SL. It was only in SA were he got whacked around, and in that respect he was no different to the rest of the bowling attack (or, for that matter, Vettori on his past tours of the dark continent). Having said that I was for his axing for the series v England as he seemed like a real mess for a while after his mum died (understandably). Still reckon that he's probably a better option than Bartin, but agree that McHesson have probably blacklisted him.
 

Flem274*

123/5
Bowlers with FC averages north of 40 can't complain about harsh treatment.

If he had never played any international cricket he may well have been dropped by Wellington by now. Luke Woodcock can average 40 with the ball and is a much better batsman.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
Luke Woodcock is a poor man's Nathan McCullum.

And that's saying something.

Seriously though, are we surprised that an older spinner has found ways to get in the wickets? Seems to happen all the time. Jeets always had a nice action and used to get reasonable amounts of turn.
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
Bowlers with FC averages north of 40 can't complain about harsh treatment.

If he had never played any international cricket he may well have been dropped by Wellington by now. Luke Woodcock can average 40 with the ball and is a much better batsman.
Seriously? Woodcock averages 1 wicket per match. And what kind of competition would Patel have for his place? Even the spin bowling "stars" of the PS like Bruce Martin are only averaging about 36. New Zealand isn't exactly flush with spinners who can average under 40. I take your central point that Patel has never produced the results needed to secure a spot in the New Zealand team, but let's not take things too far.
 

Flem274*

123/5
I exaggerated slightly for effect, but honestly, even being fair I'm doubtful he would have been given as much faith as he has by Wellington if he hadn't been plucked from obscurity all those years ago by John Bracewell. Plunket Shield spinners aren't amazing, but even they get dropped for the next so so spinner if they have the average of a batsman for too long.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
nah he wasn't plucked from obscurity he was picked initially in limited overs after doing really well for wellington. He performed well in LO for the black caps too until Dimitri Mascarenhas intervened.
 

straw man

Hall of Fame Member
Dear Tastle,

When are you leaving your Scottish and Essex clubs to come into Div 1 and average high 20s with bat and ball?

Jeets

LV= CC - Warwickshire v Sussex - Day 3 at Edgbaston - YouTube
Haha yes, took me a while to find the stats but in three seasons 2011-2013 for Warwickshire the Jeetanator now has:
118 wickets at 25.1
651 runs at 24.1

That's excellent and especially when both with wickets taken and runs scored have swung several matches in his team's favour.

As Hendrix says there should be no surprise that a spinner comes into their own in their early thirties. However I also have a hard time believing he's really bowling any differently than he did last time he played for NZ. A few other things in his favour for Warwickshire:
- He's playing for a very good side that puts the opposition under scoreboard pressure and can afford to attack.
- English pitches have apparently been more conducive to spin in last couple of seasons, in a country where batsmen typically haven't grown up playing the turning ball.

There's very little to suggest he's either a better or worse test spinner than Bartin, Vettori or Tastle imo. Though agree with RxGM that Williamson's place in the side is a mark against Patel getting another chance for NZ, under the 'variety' clause.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
Basically, the Patel blacklist makes about as much sense as the Flynn blacklist. It's not totally awful thinking in that there is some evidence behind it, but neither of them were ever complete non-performers.

Guptill's selection as a middle order bat was very inconsistent. I think Flynn would have done a better job.

Todd Astle's selection could turn out to be a bit Franklin-like in that he's not expected to contribute significantly with either bat or ball. But there are valid team composition arguments to be made in Astle's place.

I think Hesson is a "greater good" believer and the fact that Flynn doesn't bowl and Patel isn't perceived to be a good batsmen count against them. Also the fact that neither is a slip fielder. Jeets was a very good inner circle fielder though.
 

Kippax

Cricketer Of The Year
- English pitches have apparently been more conducive to spin in last couple of seasons, in a country where batsmen typically haven't grown up playing the turning ball.
Yeah Jeets' bread-and-butter wickets you see on the county highlights are the quicker ball edged to slip, an inside-edged bat-pad catch, and a sweep that carries say 60-70 metres. NZ never supplies him with this '25-30 pitches used here' aspect in terms of quickly abrased and blackened footmarks and lengthy square boundaries at all.

KW is naively dicing with death bowling for a county that attracts as much hate as Yorkshire as well btw, considering the tongues were already wagging a bit at Glos. Scaly's got a team in 2nd place ffs, this is far from 'keep anything that's fun' McGoldrickville he's strolling through atm.
 
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Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
There's very little to suggest he's either a better or worse test spinner than Bartin, Vettori or Tastle imo. Though agree with RxGM that Williamson's place in the side is a mark against Patel getting another chance for NZ, under the 'variety' clause.
I really hope you're not suggesting that Vettori is on the same level as Bartin, Tastle or Jeets. I know we all like to grump about the fact that Vettori has never won New Zealand a test match with the ball, but it's also true that he's New Zealand's best spinner by miles, and almost certainly our best ever. If he were fit again, and back to the level of performance he set in 2008-11, I'd have him back in the team in a heartbeat, and not just for his batting.
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
Yeah Jeets' bread-and-butter wickets you see on the county highlights are the quicker ball edged to slip, an inside edged bat-pad catch, and a sweep that carries say 60-70 metres. NZ never supplies him with this '25-30 pitches used here' aspect in terms of quickly abrased and blackened footmarks and lengthy square boundaries at all.

KW is naively dicing with death bowling for a county that attracts as much hate as Yorkshire as well btw, considering the tongues were already wagging a bit at Glos. Scaly's got a team in 2nd place ffs, this is far from 'keep anything that's fun' McGoldrickville he's strolling through atm.
I don't want to sound harsh or anything, but what the **** does this even mean?
 

Kippax

Cricketer Of The Year
She actually said that once. The English cricket fan welcomes a contentious debate and is less positivity-orientated than ours.

Posted by CricketingStargazer on (May 20, 2013, 12:39 GMT)
@Erebus26 There may be one reason not to depend too much on Kane Williamson. I know that when he played for Gloucestershire a couple of seasons back there was a lot of muttering about his action on the county circuit, especially for his faster ball. Some opponents were very unhappy about his action (I'm a Gloucestershire fan and remember this well). Maybe it would not be wise to subject him to too much scrutiny by playing him as a specialist, bowling long spells?
 
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straw man

Hall of Fame Member
I really hope you're not suggesting that Vettori is on the same level as Bartin, Tastle or Jeets. I know we all like to grump about the fact that Vettori has never won New Zealand a test match with the ball, but it's also true that he's New Zealand's best spinner by miles, and almost certainly our best ever. If he were fit again, and back to the level of performance he set in 2008-11, I'd have him back in the team in a heartbeat, and not just for his batting.
I was allowing for a decline in Vettori's test bowling given he hasn't played for a while and if he does play again, is quite likely to never be 100% fit.

Even so, when selecting from those four spinners it's sufficiently close that style (control vs attack), expected conditions (footmarks), plus non-bowling attributes (batting, fielding and intangibles like experience) are going to make up a large part of the decision rather than just 'spin bowling'. It's a points decision, not a knockout.
 

Maximas

Cricketer Of The Year
Vettori looked very flat in the WI test he played, but Bartin and Jeets really aren't the options moving forward IMO. develop a decent wrist spinner IMO, whether it's Astle (batting at 8) or Sodhi
 

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