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**Official** India v Pakistan

wahindiawah

Banned
Unattainableguy said:
What's that gotta do with the fact that Pathan only does well against minnows?
He has not played enough yet, he did fared well against Pakistan in Pakistan. Khalil on the other hand is a pre-school level pacer and its amazing that he's representing a national team.

Is that really the best you guys have over there?
 

Gangster

U19 12th Man
SJS said:
I am not surprised Srinath said that after all he is still aspiring to be India's bowling coach. There couldnt be worse publicity than this.

The fact is that Balaji did go to him. Then had a problem. Then went to Sekhar and then the problem got resolved.

Rest , who knows for sure :p
Those are the facts are they? Did you conduct a fact-finding mission to find all the evidence or are you outright branding Srinath a liar?
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Gangster said:
Those are the facts are they? Did you conduct a fact-finding mission to find all the evidence or are you outright branding Srinath a liar?
I sent one of my gangster side kicks :)
 

Unattainableguy

State 12th Man
wahindiawah said:
He has not played enough yet, he did fared well against Pakistan in Pakistan. Khalil on the other hand is a pre-school level pacer and its amazing that he's representing a national team.
So you're defending Pathan by saying he's not played enough yet and criticizing Khalil even though it was his 2nd test, which is a lot less experience than Pathan has had.

wahindiawah said:
Is that really the best you guys have over there?
You'll know when you throw Khalil out of your mind.
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
SJS said:
I am reminded of an old .....A new ball bowler complained that the wicket was no good for bowlers since he couldnt swing the ball on it....the wicket is supposed to have nothing to do with swinging the ball in the air....Swing has to do with grip, wrist and body action and , it will swing more in heavier conditions and with a more pronounced seam. The moisture in the air. swells the seam and increases the resistance to the air flow, therby creating a lower pressure are behind the ball and moving it in that direction.
In that case, why do you have "conditions that suit seam and swing bowling" and those that don't? Why are pitches in India considered fast bowlers' nightmares? Why do the Daryl Tuffey gang struggle outside New Zealand? Interestingly, greater swing happens in colder regions, particularly north in England. OF course, there is also the trick of moving the ball off the pitch, which bowlers like Srinath, Gough and probably Cairns used very often.
SJS said:
Balaji went to Srinath for advice and, by accident or design(I suspect the latter), copied Srinaths bowling action and lost his swing comletely. Srinath never had it himself. When it was noticed by T Shekhar, he was told to forget all that he had tried to imbibe fro Srinath and the swing came back !!
Srinath was a genuine fast bowler in his younger years, very raw, until he played in England, where he learnt the tricks of lateral movement.

Balaji had a diagonal run-up (thankfully, that has been straightened) and used to pitch the ball short of a length regularly. That made him effective in South India, where pitches were almost devoid of bounce, so he could slide in the ball from any length a little beyond good length. He struggled whenever he played for the A-team, or in Test matches, until Mohali 2005.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Arjun said:
In that case, why do you have "conditions that suit seam and swing bowling" and those that don't? Why are pitches in India considered fast bowlers' nightmares? Why do the Daryl Tuffey gang struggle outside New Zealand? Interestingly, greater swing happens in colder regions, particularly north in England. OF course, there is also the trick of moving the ball off the pitch, which bowlers like Srinath, Gough and probably Cairns used very often.Srinath was a genuine fast bowler in his younger years, very raw, until he played in England, where he learnt the tricks of lateral movement.

Balaji had a diagonal run-up (thankfully, that has been straightened) and used to pitch the ball short of a length regularly. That made him effective in South India, where pitches were almost devoid of bounce, so he could slide in the ball from any length a little beyond good length. He struggled whenever he played for the A-team, or in Test matches, until Mohali 2005.
You really want me to answer all that. Its a lot of stuff :p

1. why do you have "conditions that suit seam and swing bowling"
Firstly seam movement is different from swing. Swing is the term used for movement in the air. So a pitch could seam and conditions could be helpful for seamimg as they are in England lets say. It depends on the wicket.

Swing depends on the action and the ball condition since it is achieved mainly by the force and direction of force against the wind. The shine on the ball, the differential between the two sides of the ball(in surface condition) and the condition of the seam, all determine this force. But unless the seam is in the right position and the ball is delivered in an action that allows the seam to maintain its position and the ball to maintain that course, the ball condition will not be enough by itself. That is why different makes of balls also swing differently. Some makers have more prominent seams than others for example.

As I said in my post, the humidity is a factor too since it makes the seam swell. Thats why the ball swings more, say in Calcutta than in the drier Delhi. But it DOES swing in Delhi inspite of the bone dry climate.

2. Why are pitches in India considered fast bowlers' nightmares?

Do I also have to spell out the difference between fast bowling and swing ? I hope not. The Indian wickets are slow, devoid of grass(mostly) which again makes them slower, and not too hard which does not allow the ball to bounce too much. Okay ??

3. Why do the Daryl Tuffey gang struggle outside New Zealand?
Both on account of humidity AND wickets that help seaming, New Zealand is a good place for bowlers who can swing or seam. If they can do both, better still.

4. OF course, there is also the trick of moving the ball off the pitch, which bowlers like Srinath, Gough and probably Cairns used very often.Srinath was a genuine fast bowler in his younger years, very raw, until he played in England, where he learnt the tricks of lateral movement.
Again, I am not talking of movement off the wicket which is not what swing bowling is all about. Nor am I talking about how fast was Srinath. He bowled, essentially fast and an off cutter. He did not swing the ball in the air with the new ball. Towards the end of his career, he was getting some balls to move away and was pitching up a bit more and holding the ball more in his fingers than in the deep of his palm as he did for most of his career.

5. I dont know what exactly Balaji did during the period he lost his swing so I cant hnestly claim to explain that. But if he tried to copy Srinath(as has been mentioned by more than one source) he coiuld have pushed the ball deeper in his palm as Srinath used to which makes it difficult to release the ball at full height with the fingers ensuring the seam stays on course as they allow the ball to touch their entire length(the index and middle finger that is) till the ball leaves the tip of the fingers. With a ball gripped inside the palm, the ball leaves late, the seam integrity is not maintained and you tend to pitch shorter.

It may be this or it maybe something else. I did not see it with Balaji.
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
SJS said:
Swing depends on the action and the ball condition since it is achieved mainly by the force and direction of force against the wind. The shine on the ball, the differential between the two sides of the ball(in surface condition) and the condition of the seam, all determine this force. But unless the seam is in the right position and the ball is delivered in an action that allows the seam to maintain its position and the ball to maintain that course, the ball condition will not be enough by itself. That is why different makes of balls also swing differently. Some makers have more prominent seams than others for example.
Any slow-medium pacer can become as effective as the tearaways, in that case. Why can't the Indians (or all slower bowlers, in general) do this more often? Is the action too stressful? The Indian seamers (particularly Zaheer and Agarkar) don't have the natural pace, but they try to bend their backs to get extra pace- that can be very stressful.
SJS said:
The Indian wickets are slow, devoid of grass(mostly) which again makes them slower, and not too hard which does not allow the ball to bounce too much.
Would you get more Brett Lee clones if you made wickets like the WACA's in India? We may know sooner than later, given how the wickets for the Duleep and Ranji knockouts have played. Then again, Pakistan and the West Indies have some rather slow pitches, yet you have a few tearaways emerging from there. It may be the "fast-twitch muscles" that Dennis Lillee mentioned as the cause of extra pace. It could be an action that runs faster. Maybe some Indian bowlers have both, but we don't know where they are.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Arjun said:
Any slow-medium pacer can become as effective as the tearaways, in that case. Why can't the Indians (or all slower bowlers, in general) do this more often? Is the action too stressful? The Indian seamers (particularly Zaheer and Agarkar) don't have the natural pace, but they try to bend their backs to get extra pace- that can be very stressful.Would you get more Brett Lee clones if you made wickets like the WACA's in India? We may know sooner than later, given how the wickets for the Duleep and Ranji knockouts have played. Then again, Pakistan and the West Indies have some rather slow pitches, yet you have a few tearaways emerging from there. It may be the "fast-twitch muscles" that Dennis Lillee mentioned as the cause of extra pace. It could be an action that runs faster. Maybe some Indian bowlers have both, but we don't know where they are.
Why dont all Indian medium pacers do that. Well many of them do. SS Paul for example or Mohanty, Prasad and Harvinder Singh amongst those who played in last ten years. Whatever they did was basically on account of movement in the air but if it is not accompanied by pace, even if not express, at least medium pace, it has its own problems.

Firstly, if you swing at below a critical speed, you tend to get what is referred as banana swing. Thats to say, the swing starts very early. For late swing, higher speeds are required. When bowlers swing at high speeds, the ball travels straight for some time since the velocity takes care of the wind resistance, as the ball proceeds on its way to the batsman, it slows down enough for the air to have an impact on the ball and it swings. Normally this is a major factor in late swing. Of course the bowling action helps. In swing movement is a bit later than out swing at the same pace.

So, if you are going to get the ball to swing from the time it leaves your hand, a good batsman will be ready for it. Though it will get many lesser batsmen. Mohinder Amarnath's success with lower order batsmen has a lot to do with this.

Secondly, not having enough speed makes increases the reaction time available to the batsman. Thus the bowlers error margin reduces much more. The slower the bowler the more accurate he needs to be, which means the range in which he pitches the ball for the batsman to take time to decide wether to play forward or back, is narrrower. A faster bowler gets a larger leeway. Thus a bit of in accuracy by a slower swing bowler gets badly punished.

2. Why should Indian bowlers try to bend their backs. Well, Zaheer was over doing it and his injuries were a result of that. Bowlers of Zaheer's pace would do very well if they swung the ball. But remember,the limited over game really punishes a swinging ball due to the tight wide rule. Thus the propensity of limited over games has made most bowlers to do without the swinging ball, particularly those(like ,most left handers) whose natural delivery comes into the right handed batsman. The reason, obviously is the much tighter leg side wide rule.

If you dont bowl in swing (or out wing) with a new ball normally, you are not likely to be able to swing when you want to. Actions are extremely habit forming. People who suddenly lose their swing or their spin have all made some involuntary change in their bowling action and not able to get it back.

In the seventies, I dont remember playing any left arm new ball bowler whose stock delivery did not swing considerably in the air. Even Bishan Bedi would take a new ball in a match where the pace bowler had not come and gently bowl his inswingers and it did move !! Today, most left arm bowlers want to bowl over the wicket to right handers and make the ball angle across their bosies. In those days, they bowled round the wicket and swung them in sharply and for variation bowled cutters from the same spot which moved off the wicket towards slips.

The only reason for going round the stumps was, if the ball was swinging prodigiously and it was difficult to get an LBW decision bowling round the wicket.

Balaji does swing the ball. Thats why he gets wickets. Nehra, whatever success he achieved was because he swung the ball in. The modern day batsmen are not that used to swing bowling and it always manages to surprise them. I am surprised and wonder what an Imran Khan would have done. He would have run through most sides.

3. Why dont we have fast bowlers
Multiplicity of reasons. Wickets is only one and not the major one. Wickets will help the batsmen more by getting them used to faster wickets. To the bowlers it helps only to the extent of motivating them and rewarding them for bending there backs. This in return would 'retain' young bowlers in the faster bowling area. Nothing more.

The major problem is physique and diet. Pakistan gets almost all their fast bowlers from Noth and North west. The Punjabis and the Pathans. First of, let us understand that even in Punjab as you move towards the West the bodies are bigger. Thus the North Western Punjabis are much bigger and taller than the South Eastern Punjabis. So we start with a handicap of having lost the bigger guys amongst the Punjabis, in a way, at the time of partition. Secondly, Punjabis in India did not take to cricket as they dod in Pakistan. In India cricket remained an elitist game first in Bombay and in Delhi and around it also it was played by the middle class and trading community. The jats favoured hocky (if at all they were inclined to play sport). This trend has continiued.

The other people who played cricket were from West and South. Not naturally big built and with a propensity of vegetarians. Remember, even a non-vegetarian in the North, like me , for example, does not eat meat very often. The diet, over centuries, and the built of those who took to the game are much bigger reasons than the wickets. Even now a large number of the boys who play cricket in Punjab are what are called 'bhapaas'. Basically a trading community and not the agriculturist jats.

So leave Kapil and look at those who bowled for India with the new ball and trace back their antecedents and you will see.

Look at the Indian team pre partition and you will find the two fastest bowlers produced by India, Mohammad Nissar and Ramji (brother of Amar Singh himself a very fine medium fast bowlers) Nissar bowled a bouncer on the tour to England and the ball nearly went for 6 byes !!

Then there were those who went to Pakistan.

What you should ask yourself is that with so many Indians having played for west Indies , a virtual factory of fast bowlers, how come all of them were either spinners or batsmen starting from Ramadhin and Kanhai to Sarwan, Chanderpaul and Rampaul. You will get the answer. The wickets, the atmosphere, the peers around them could not convert the West Indians of Indian origin to become fast bowlers. The reason is the same.
 

ReallyCrazy

Banned
SJS said:
The other people who played cricket were from West and South. Not naturally big built and with a propensity of vegetarians. Remember, even a non-vegetarian in the North, like me , for example, does not eat meat very often. The diet, over centuries, and the built of those who took to the game are much bigger reasons than the wickets. Even now a large number of the boys who play cricket in Punjab are what are called 'bhapaas'. Basically a trading community and not the agriculturist jats.
I'm a vegetarian and I can bench 75 kg, wonder why. Can also run 10 miles without stopping, well used to, dont know about now.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
ReallyCrazy said:
I'm a vegetarian and I can bench 75 kg, wonder why. Can also run 10 miles without stopping, well used to, dont know about now.
good for you :)
 

shoot_me

School Boy/Girl Captain
Unattainableguy said:
Not so sure about ODIs, but Pathan only performs well in the tests against minnow nations.
You're actually right about that. Pathan's average against all teams except Bangladesh would be in the 40's. But counting him performances against Bangladesh, I think his bowling avg in tests has touched 30. Compare this to Balaji, who has never played against a minnow and manages an avg of 34. That really says something and I think Balaji's bowling will be crucial in Bangalore since it's a venue that gives some assistance to pacers. The problem I see with Pathan now is that he has no pace and just doesn't look like getting a wicket.
 
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Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
SJS said:
Look at the Indian team pre partition and you will find the two fastest bowlers produced by India, Mohammad Nissar and Ramji (brother of Amar Singh himself a very fine medium fast bowlers) Nissar bowled a bouncer on the tour to England and the ball nearly went for 6 byes !!
I remember reading an article by Dileep Premachandran, where he mentioned the Indian pace attack of the past. He said that the Indian team had a famous pace attack, and Mohammed Nissar was described by Harold Larwood as one of the faster bowlers who had played then. Soon after, you had Jasu Patel taking nine wickets in an innings, after which Indian selection and strategy was heavily spin-based, while pace was put on the backburner. Though they did win a few matches abroad with their spin-heavy attack, they never won too many.

You have experts talking about how important it is for the Indian team to develop a pace attack, but they need pace, don't they?
SJS said:
The major problem is physique and diet.
Punjabis and more so Haryanvis, I hear, eat more or less five times as much as anyone from, say, UP. Their diet seems heavy on proteins, so that may account for their rather muscular build. That would not be too bad, but it doesn't add any pace, does it? The least it can do is help them sustain that pace.

Someone mentioned a young man, who's six foot five, ploughing fields in Punjab. That man could have been the leading fast bowler for the country. That is where these talent-hunts may come useful.
 

mofo123

U19 12th Man
wahindiawah said:
He has not played enough yet, he did fared well against Pakistan in Pakistan. Khalil on the other hand is a pre-school level pacer and its amazing that he's representing a national team.

Is that really the best you guys have over there?
is he id like to see u face him, ud last maybe 3 balls... waqar himself sed he was hitting 90's and swinging it when he was in the U-19 standard he had an injury andthus had to change his action...therefore the product is less then satisfying
 

mofo123

U19 12th Man
wahindiawah said:
This from soneone who's country's openeing bowling happen to be Khalil :p
no he is not the opning bowler...shoiab sami shabbir and gul r openers...not khallil he is filling the gap
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Unattainableguy said:
So you're defending Pathan by saying he's not played enough yet and criticizing Khalil even though it was his 2nd test, which is a lot less experience than Pathan has had.

You'll soon learn he's a troll with nothing meaningful to say.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Arjun said:
You have experts talking about how important it is for the Indian team to develop a pace attack, but they need pace, don't they?Punjabis and more so Haryanvis, I hear, eat more or less five times as much as anyone from, say, UP. Their diet seems heavy on proteins, so that may account for their rather muscular build. That would not be too bad, but it doesn't add any pace, does it? The least it can do is help them sustain that pace.

Someone mentioned a young man, who's six foot five, ploughing fields in Punjab. That man could have been the leading fast bowler for the country. That is where these talent-hunts may come useful.
Yes haryanvis too but they are even less inclined towards cricket, the jats amongst them that is.

Pace does need strength and physique has a correlation with strength, surely. Yes, physique alone wont do, but without physique, you start with a major handicap.

One youngman from the fields wont do (I know you dont mean just one) there have to be a large number of people taking up the game and fast bowling and then you have a chance of some of them coming good.

People talk of picking up a young Punjabi lad and training him fro childhood and making him a fast bowler. Unfortunately that is assuming that every one who takes up fast bowling will make it and that is , of course, not true.
 

wahindiawah

Banned
mofo123 said:
is he id like to see u face him, ud last maybe 3 balls... waqar himself sed he was hitting 90's and swinging it when he was in the U-19 standard he had an injury andthus had to change his action...therefore the product is less then satisfying

When there is no hope, then even the likes of Khalil's gets fans.

I shudder to think what will happen to ur team when the role model for future generation would be Khalil, and Rana.
 

Choora

State Regular
Danish and Asim going to be omitted again!

Hafeez, Yasir, Rao Iftikhar likely to join Pak team for ODIs

From our correspondent

BANGALORE: The tour selection committee of the Pakistan squad in India will sit down tonight to finalize their team for the six match one-day series against India starting from April 2.

According to sources the tour selection committee that includes the captain, coach, manager and vice captain will decide on which players need to be sent back after the Test series and which players should be asked to join the team for the one-dayers.

"Basically, we will look at our requirements for the one-dayers and then make recommendations to the national selectors. But it is their final decision on the replacements, we can only make the recommendations," said manager Saleem Altaf.

Indications are that the tour selection committee might decide to send back pacer Muhammad Khalil, leg-spinner Danish Kaneria and batsmen Asim Kamal and Taufeeq Umar and ask for all-rounders Muhammad Hafeez and Yasir Arafat and pace bowler Rao Iftikhar Anjum.
 

Choora

State Regular
Can't understand what Inzi and Bob has against Asim and Danish. Branding someone test players without even giving them a chance to prove themselves in OD is foolish.

I would like to see how Yasir Arafat performs, he took 6 wkts in Pak A win against England A today.
 

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