***Official*** India in New Zealand 2013/14

[Howsie]

Jelepeno from the GP forums?

 

[SteveNZ]

@SteveNZ

Might have something to do with the fact that he hasn't even played a full season of matches for Auckland yet, he'd be lucky if he's even bowled 50 overs for Auckland in List A cricket, he's also from memory had one unbelievable performance against Wellington (6 or 7 wickets for about 40 runs, it's what got him in the NZ A team and then the NZ ODI team) - I don't think he's played a single domestic one dayer since his ODI debut.

He's as quick as anyone not named Bennett, Milne, Wheeler, Mathieson or Kuggelign within the country and unlike any of those players, he's able to control line and length. He's also a hit the deck bowler, which isn't something we have in the current three seamers we have at test.

Ryder as an opener. #5 is currently the test captains spot, with a coach who has said that he does not envisage the captain opening the batting for NZ in tests. #4 is locked down for Taylor. #6 is currently our all rounder who in his international performances to date has locked down that position. #7 is our best keeper batsman since Parore. Meaning you've got #1, 2 and 3. #3 is currently Williamson's to lose, despite Ryder being a better player, narrowing it to #1 and #2.

Looking at the players most equipped to deal with express pace and moving deliveries, Ryder is easily better than Fulton, Williamson (nasty tendency to play inside out at deliveries and follow the ball), Guptill (can't turn over the strike to save himself, follows deliveries) and Rutherford (horrible tendency to throw away starts)

So, is he good enough to play for NZ? Yes. Are there positions in the batting order we need to change/fix? Yes. Should he be given a chance at that spot, if the usual #5 is occupied by the captain and a coach reluctant to let him open, despite McCullum wanting to? Yes.

Not sure what the point of the 'he hasn't bowled more than 50 overs', he hasn't played for Auckland since NZ' etc is. You said he was being used poorly by Auckland, and you were way off. Incidentally he took 5-for in the game before that 6 against Wellington.

Look, I would love the bloke to play Test cricket but at the moment he's behind a couple of people based on the fact he hasn't put up a compelling case to be picked through FC cricket. You want him picked on ODI form, I'm here to tell you that's not a great guide. Plus his body needs to prove it is up to it.

There is one guy scoring runs as an opener and it's Gup (and Papps, mind you). Jesse is not opening, and if he has opened at FC level it can't have been much. If he comes back in, he'll bat at 5, push Brendon down one and bowl a few overs. Anderson has made one score v the lowest two Test nations (bar us) so I doubt he's locked in.

I find it funny that you've seen Wagner move it both ways, but not Boult. Anyway, it's impossible to take you seriously if you refuse to concede Boult was swinging it both ways based on that footage, which you asked to see as proof and were duly given. You and my ex girlfriend both have stubborn down to an art form, and I bet even I could convince her those deliveries are swinging out of the hand.

 

[ohnoitsyou]

Ffs anybody can get the ball to move both ways when it is reversing.

Most of Wagners top order wickets are due to unforced errors from the batsman, ie. Anybody could have got those wickets. Sure there have been some great ones mixed in there, such as the kp inswinging yorker but I would classify him as a lucky bowler.

 

[hendrix]

There is one guy scoring runs as an opener and it's Gup (and Papps, mind you).

Look, great post and all, but you're not getting a like until you correct this.

 

[Blocky]

@Steve

So basically, you're saying he's been used excellently by Auckland on the basis of 16 wickets... eleven of which were taken in two innings? You also have to re-read what I said about ODI cricket, it's not a great form indicator for test cricket but it's a hell of a lot better than our current domestic competition. How many times is Guptill going to go back and absolutely hammer domestic bowling, get in the test squad and fail dismally? How many times did Andrew Penn run through domestic attacks and yet do absolutely nothing at the international level? Wagner is basically unplayable at first class level in NZ, yet he's had struggles getting to grips with tests and that's even after a reasonable career in a stronger South African domestic competition.

McCleneghan hasn't been used well in domestic cricket, period. I think he'd be OK under McCullum, irregardless, I think he's much more proven than Southee, Sodhi and Bracewell were before they got selected to test cricket, Boult is really the only guy in recent memory I remember dominating at first class and then getting himself into the test squad. (edit: Wagner too.)

Anderson will be locked in on the basis of his performance as a fourth seamer, he's racking up some pretty incredible statistics and again, as much as you don't count ODI form, his recent ODI performances will also ensure he plays the first test. So again, if you want Ryder to play, either McCullum opens or he opens, and we have the coach going on record to indicate McCullum will not be considered as an opener again.

@Ohno

Yeah, because getting 80% of your wickets against top order players generally either LBW, Bowled or Caught Behind indicates you're a guy who gets lucky wickets

 

[Flem274*]

You do know the difference between swing and seam, right?

Just quietly, I've taken a look at the lists for a certain Auckland club and Steve has played at least the same level if not higher than you have in his time, and alongside some mighty fine bowlers including one left arm shock bowler you like a lot...

So yeah, I think he knows a bit about bowling eh.

 

[ohnoitsyou]

You also have to re-read what I said about ODI cricket, it's not a great form indicator for test cricket but it's a hell of a lot better than our current domestic competition. How many times is Guptill going to go back and absolutely hammer domestic bowling, get in the test squad and fail dismally?

* Wagner is basically unplayable at first class level in NZ, yet he's had struggles getting to grips with tests and that's even after a reasonable career in a stronger South African domestic competition.


@Ohno

Yeah, because getting 80% of your wickets against top order players generally either LBW, Bowled or Caught Behind indicates you're a guy who gets lucky wickets

1. Your argument in the first point fails because gupill is gun at odi's

2. Wagner has regressed considerably over the last couple of seasons and he could barely buy a game in SA domestics.

3. Ian bell chipping to mid off speaks for itself and don't try telling me he deceived him for pace

 

[Blocky]

Guptill is gun in T20 when he doesn't have to think about anything. Guptill has been gun in ODI when he is either in great form/touch or has played limited opposition. Guptill is not gun when under pressure and has no understanding of what "turn the strike over" means, which is why his test record is absolutely abhorrent.

So, that's one wicket out of 39 - next?

 

[ohnoitsyou]

Are you really calling the England odi side featuring Anderson, broad, finn ( who is gun at LO) and one of swan/tredwall limited?

 

[ohnoitsyou]

His test record is abhorrent because his defensive game is ****

 

[hendrix]

Exactly.
A forward defense is not just a drive without a follow through. Hell, even a drive in test cricket should be played under the eyes than playing it in front of the body. Turning over the strike would be nice but it won't solve his problems. If you can't keep the good balls out you won't succeed in test cricket.

Guptill would be better off trying to hit the good balls for six than block them the way he does.

 

[hendrix]

Guptill would be better off trying to hit the good balls for six than block them the way he does.

Funny that I say this because I was just thinking to myself that the exact ball that he hit for six that got his innings going the other day is the same type of ball he'd get out to in test cricket trying to block or drive.

 

[SteveNZ]

@Steve

So basically, you're saying he's been used excellently by Auckland on the basis of 16 wickets... eleven of which were taken in two innings? You also have to re-read what I said about ODI cricket, it's not a great form indicator for test cricket but it's a hell of a lot better than our current domestic competition. How many times is Guptill going to go back and absolutely hammer domestic bowling, get in the test squad and fail dismally? How many times did Andrew Penn run through domestic attacks and yet do absolutely nothing at the international level? Wagner is basically unplayable at first class level in NZ, yet he's had struggles getting to grips with tests and that's even after a reasonable career in a stronger South African domestic competition.

McCleneghan hasn't been used well in domestic cricket, period. I think he'd be OK under McCullum, irregardless, I think he's much more proven than Southee, Sodhi and Bracewell were before they got selected to test cricket, Boult is really the only guy in recent memory I remember dominating at first class and then getting himself into the test squad. (edit: Wagner too.)

Anderson will be locked in on the basis of his performance as a fourth seamer, he's racking up some pretty incredible statistics and again, as much as you don't count ODI form, his recent ODI performances will also ensure he plays the first test. So again, if you want Ryder to play, either McCullum opens or he opens, and we have the coach going on record to indicate McCullum will not be considered as an opener again.

@Ohno

Yeah, because getting 80% of your wickets against top order players generally either LBW, Bowled or Caught Behind indicates you're a guy who gets lucky wickets

No...I didn't say he was being used excellently. You said he was being used poorly, and I used hard facts to prove he isn't/wasn't. And then you resorted to the 'but a lot of them were in such and such amount of games' which is the most ridiculous retort in all of cricket - unless we're again referring to your description of balls that move right to left in the air out of Boult's hand but apparently aren't swinging. And as I explained before, he bowls on a dung heap at Eden Park #2 with a heavy outfield/run-up that does not sit well with his size 15 feet. It's got absolutely zero to do with Hoppy's captaincy. In fact if you grab Mitch tomorrow night after the ODI, I know he will speak just as highly of Hoppy as he will Brendon.

FYI, the SA domestic comp Wagner played in was not stronger than NZ domestic cricket. Again, do your research. Recognise any names here - The Home of CricketArchive ?

You're entitled to your opinion but I'm fairly certain most of us view Gup's failures at Test level to be his defensive technique, not his mental application. I'm also interested in how turning the strike over is an issue for him in Tests, with less scoreboard pressure, and not in ODIs where it becomes more paramount.

 

[hendrix]

he still sucks at turning over the strike though...

 

[SteveNZ]

He's not the best in the world at it, no doubt. I'm just flummoxed by some of the theories.

 

[ohnoitsyou]

he still sucks at turning over the strike though...

Ironically there are few better at dropping the ball right in front and stealing a single

 

[Prince EWS]

Must also be mentioned that the competition Wagner played the vast majority of his cricket in South Africa in was in no way stronger than the Plunket Shield.

 

[Blocky]

No...I didn't say he was being used excellently. You said he was being used poorly, and I used hard facts to prove he isn't/wasn't. And then you resorted to the 'but a lot of them were in such and such amount of games' which is the most ridiculous retort in all of cricket - unless we're again referring to your description of balls that move right to left in the air out of Boult's hand but apparently aren't swinging. And as I explained before, he bowls on a dung heap at Eden Park #2 with a heavy outfield/run-up that does not sit well with his size 15 feet. It's got absolutely zero to do with Hoppy's captaincy. In fact if you grab Mitch tomorrow night after the ODI, I know he will speak just as highly of Hoppy as he will Brendon.

You're entitled to your opinion but I'm fairly certain most of us view Gup's failures at Test level to be his defensive technique, not his mental application. I'm also interested in how turning the strike over is an issue for him in Tests, with less scoreboard pressure, and not in ODIs where it becomes more paramount.

I've played with Hop and think he's a great guy, but can tell you firsthand he has no idea how to set attacking fields for bowlers and part of the reason Auckland haven't been a factor since 2008 comes from this exact fact. With McCleneghan, compare the field settings he gets for Auckland, versus the ones he's given at international level. Also, a guy who has hereditary hip problems should never be called on to bowl 55 out of 210 overs over two innings in a first class match, that's not how you use McCleneghan, especially when you have a number of part timers and a pretty good spinner by domestic standards available.

Taking a score card at random and asking if the players are recognisable, I could do the same thing with a New Zealand team, even in Australia. But I recognise a fair few of those players, Phangiso has played for South Africa, Bossenger was in a number of South Africa A squads, there are a number of players there that have taken advantage of the Kolpak ruling to play county cricket. Our domestic cricket competition is not strong, it's weak as anything once the Black Caps are out of the mix. But yes, tell me how the South African domestic competition isn't stronger than ours, then try to explain how Wagner came to New Zealand and proceeded to pretty much top our domestic bowling figures season in, season out for the past six years?

Guptill can defend reasonably well, the problem is that he doesn't have any ability to both defend the good balls while also looking to score off the bad ones, take a look at his strike rate in test cricket, it's almost comparable with Mark Richardson's. Teams don't fear Guptill because when he's defending, he's removed all ability to think about scoring any runs, and when he's attacking, he's not capable of choosing the right ball to hit. There is a reason he faced 66 dot balls against the Windies, the guy is a mess mentally when it comes to constructing an innings. This ultimately means that if he's not finding gaps early in his innings, he gets stuck, the other team builds pressure up on him and the players around him and eventually he gets dismissed, his last attempts as an opening batsman at test level showed this problem almost every single time, If he ever plays test cricket again, it'll be too soon - I don't even think he deserves to be in our ODI squad at present either.

 

[Flem274*]

Auckland have sucked since 2008 because their top order batting and their bowling has been poor. They're too reliant on Hopkins and Munro scoring all the runs. The situation has improved with Guptill and Jeet Raval opening this season though.

Wagner played most of his South African cricket in the second division which is probably worse than our comp. Franchise cricket is boss though, no question. Wagner's first two PS seasons were terrible (21 @ 33, 28 @ 37).

Only a moron would drop Guptill from the ODI side, let alone the squad.

 

[Bahnz]

Taking a score card at random and asking if the players are recognisable, I could do the same thing with a New Zealand team, even in Australia. But I recognise a fair few of those players, Phangiso has played for South Africa, Bossenger was in a number of South Africa A squads, there are a number of players there that have taken advantage of the Kolpak ruling to play county cricket. Our domestic cricket competition is not strong, it's weak as anything once the Black Caps are out of the mix. But yes, tell me how the South African domestic competition isn't stronger than ours, then try to explain how Wagner came to New Zealand and proceeded to pretty much top our domestic bowling figures season in, season out for the past six years?

Simple. He didn't.

2008/09 figures: 21 wickets at 33
2009/10 figures: 28 wickets at 37

And Wagner wasn't (for the most part) playing in the top class franchise domestic comp in SA, but the lesser 2nd division semi-pro comp - the standards of which certainly aren't vastly superior to the PS.