Is there a team that can beat this Asian ODI XI?

[subshakerz]

I never said I will drop Wasim for Kapil. As I said, I only picked him as a 4th quick. There are different ways of picking teams. Your team would work, so will mine.

Also comparing Zaheer to Laxman is pointless. Neither had a secondary skill, but Kapil had, compared to the bowlers you mentioned.

On a side note, you really need to stop over critiquing someone else's teams. My post was a stand alone one, not a response to someone else's.
Sometimes it makes sense to respect other's opinions, as long as they are not moronic, even though they absolutely do not match with yours.

So Kapil stays in my team for the reasons I explained, though I understand why you do not pick him, as you have explained .

Fair enough.

 

[Slifer]

Imo for the Asian team, you pick the best team regardless of conditions. Why? Because with Australia for example, they are likely to pick Warne and Lillee regardless of conditions. Warne famously struggled vs India (relevant because the Asian team is dominated by Indian batsmen) and quite frankly Lillee is unproven in Asia. The WI would likely choose Ambrose who'd probably not do as well in Asia. Pick the best team and let the chips fall where they may. So I'd still go based on my gut with:

Gavaskar
Sehwag
Dravid
Sachin
Javed
Sangakkara +
Imran*
Ashwin
Akram
Waqar
Murali

They would destroy anyone in Asia and be more than competitive away. Even if say, Ashwin is a bit of a liability outside Asia, there are 4 other competent bowlers more than able to pick up the slack.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

The reason I picked Kapil in my team is that there are 2 non Asian countries where he is arguably the best asian bowler ever, and unarguably among top two. This is of course before Bumrah arrived, and I will wait a while longer before rating him.

When an asian team travels overseas, at least 3 gun bowlers are required in every country. Best on their historical performance, these are the best bowlers in individual countries.

Australia - Kapil, Wasim, Imran
West Indies - Imran, Kapil, Waqar
England - Imran, Wasim, Waqar
NZ - Imran, Wasim, Waqar
Sub Continent - no need to discuss
SA - an issue because of low sample size, however I would still bank a couple of them to show up well.

So, it is not about picking the 3 best bowlers, but covering all bases by picking a 4th quick. Also, Waqar's record is a bit suspect in a couple of countries unlike Imran and Wasim.

Also, Kapil had the unique ability to turn around a match in a session, with the bat. He is the only one in the bottom 5 in that team who could that. Imran needed time to score big runs and is a solid bat, not just a counter attacking one. Akram could play odd blistering knock, though nowhere as good as Kapil in that aspect.

+ Imran's best phase with bat came with declined bowling prowess.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Because in practical terms the lower you play a bowling allrounder down the order the less impact his batting will have.

Most test teams are fine with one quality allrounder and with Wasim there is batting depth.

Unlike in ODIs where you can indulge in having two allrounders in a team or more, test needs more specialists and there are better options than Kapil as one of the five bowlers. Kapil isnt good enough to be picked for his batting or bowling alone and his allround package isnt as useful with Imran already in the side.

In Sc, the combo will clearly be Imran/Wasim/Ashwin or Kumble/Waqar/Murali while outside you can leave Ashwin or Kumble for a worldclass pacer like Shoaib or Asif.

1. Kapil averaged 34 at 8, it is likely to go up if he is in the company of Imran and Akram.
2. Kapil might bat higher than Imran, and possibly Dhoni too. ( 6/7 )
3. Most teams are fine with one AR, because thats what available. More is better if it does not compromise anything ( like in this case.. He is 5th best SC bowler anyway.. Without considering Bumrah )
4. Imran was more like Hadlee in batting until late 80s, I prefer a better batsman at 7.
5. Kapil is good enough to be picked as a bowler alone ( not considering Bumrah )

 

[Burgey]

Test version:

Gavaskar
Sehwag
Dravid
Sachin
Javed
Sangakkara +
Imran*
Ashwin
Akram
Waqar
Murali

No all time team has a chance in Asia. Outside in neutral conditions; possibly. Of the all time teams I'd give Australia the best chance in neutral conditions (Australia has the best XI of all). Thoughts??

So you're combining 4 nations' worth of players, picking players from three of them then saying "no other country's AT team could beat this lot." I'm pretty sure if you combined an AT XI from Aus, SA, England & WI they'd beat that side inside three days after declaring at about 4/660 half way through day two.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

If Bumrah overtakes Waqar, then Waqar and Bumrah can both play outside the SC and Bumrah can play with two spinners and Imran/Wasim in the SC. Kapil isnt needed. He will dilute the bowling quality in an all-time XI.

How is Kapil diluting bowling quality? He is the 5th best SC bowler ever.
Sobers is the 5th bowler for most AT 11s, Kapil is far better bowler than Sobers.

 

[subshakerz]

Imo for the Asian team, you pick the best team regardless of conditions. Why? Because with Australia for example, they are likely to pick Warne and Lillee regardless of conditions. Warne famously struggled vs India (relevant because the Asian team is dominated by Indian batsmen) and quite frankly Lillee is unproven in Asia. The WI would likely choose Ambrose who'd probably not do as well in Asia. Pick the best team and let the chips fall where they may. So I'd still go based on my gut with:

Gavaskar
Sehwag
Dravid
Sachin
Javed
Sangakkara +
Imran*
Ashwin
Akram
Waqar
Murali

They would destroy anyone in Asia and be more than competitive away. Even if say, Ashwin is a bit of a liability outside Asia, there are 4 other competent bowlers more than able to pick up the slack.

That is a very good lineup.

There is no established Asian ATG wicketkeeper batsman yet and therefore Sanga takes the gloves.

To me if you are picking for all conditions, Kumble has to go in place of Ashwin as a pure spinner. They will still be unbeatable in Asia and more of a threat away from home. Plus you have a leggie and offie which is more complete.

 

[Slifer]

So you're combining 4 nations' worth of players, picking players from three of them then saying "no other country's AT team could beat this lot." I'm pretty sure if you combined an AT XI from Aus, SA, England & WI they'd beat that side inside three days after declaring at about 4/660 half way through day two.

I highly doubt any combination of AT teams are going to beat this team "IN Asia" which is what I said. Maybe getting destroyed is an exaggeration. I also said the Asian team would be competitive away. I see no controversy there as well. Let's pick from the ROW:

Hobbs
Hutton
Bradman*
Viv
Sobers
Gilchrist +
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne
O'Reilly
Mcgrath

Still think the Asian team wins in Asia but you may be right, destroying a ROW XI in Asia, on paper looks unlikely. Fwiw the number 4 in my ROW really could be any of about a dozen players: Lara, Kallis, Hammond, Barrington etc. I went with Viv out of bias.

 

[Slifer]

That is a very good lineup.

There is no established Asian ATG wicketkeeper batsman yet and therefore Sanga takes the gloves.

To me if you are picking for all conditions, Kumble has to go in place of Ashwin as a pure spinner. They will still be unbeatable in Asia and more of a threat away from home. Plus you have a leggie and offie which is more complete.

That's fair.

 

[subshakerz]

How is Kapil diluting bowling quality? He is the 5th best SC bowler ever.
Sobers is the 5th bowler for most AT 11s, Kapil is far better bowler than Sobers.

Imran, Wasim, Waqar and Murali are locks in the side.

First, Kapil is not the 5th best bowler. He was a good swing bowler but short of worldclass status. The only other worldclass bowlers are Shoaib, Fazal, Asif and Bumrah. Any one of them can play instead of Kapil and the bowling will be stronger.

If you are playing in an ATG XI, you need to be worldclass level in at least one discipline. Sobers is an ATG-level bat and therefore they can justify his lesser bowling. Imran is an ATG-level bowler and they can justify his lesser batting. Kapil is not ATG or worldclass in either discipline.

 

[honestbharani]

as long as they are not moronic, even though they absolutely do not match with yours.

Usually, the latter happens coz of the former.

 

[Slifer]

Imran, Wasim, Waqar and Murali are locks in the side.

First, Kapil is not the 5th best bowler. He was a good swing bowler but short of worldclass status. The only other worldclass bowlers are Shoaib, Fazal, Asif and Bumrah. Any one of them can play instead of Kapil and the bowling will be stronger.

If you are playing in an ATG XI, you need to be worldclass level in at least one discipline. Sobers is an ATG-level bat and therefore they can justify his lesser bowling. Imran is an ATG-level bowler and they can justify his lesser batting. Kapil is not ATG in either discipline.

Locks for any Asian side:

Gavaskar
Sachin
Imran**
Wasim
Murali

 

[subshakerz]

I highly doubt any combination of AT teams are going to beat this team "IN Asia" which is what I said. Maybe getting destroyed is an exaggeration. I also said the Asian team would be competitive away. I see no controversy there as well. Let's pick from the ROW:

Hobbs
Hutton
Bradman*
Viv
Sobers
Gilchrist +
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne
O'Reilly
Mcgrath

Still think the Asian team wins in Asia but you may be right, destroying a ROW XI in Asia, on paper looks unlikely. Fwiw the number 4 in my ROW really could be any of about a dozen players: Lara, Kallis, Hammond, Barrington etc. I went with Viv out of bias.

Lara belongs there and you can drop O'Reilly.

 

[Slifer]

Lara belongs there and you can drop O'Reilly.

So you'd drop O'Reilly for an extra batsman or have Lara replace Viv?

 

[Prince EWS]

So you'd drop O'Reilly for an extra batsman or have Lara replace Viv?

Hadlee is at 7 in that lineup which is insane so I assume the former.

 

[subshakerz]

Locks for any Asian side:

Gavaskar
Sachin
Imran**
Wasim
Murali

These five are the five clear bonafide ATGs in Asia.

The rest are regular greats or what you call ATVG.

 

[subshakerz]

So you'd drop O'Reilly for an extra batsman or have Lara replace Viv?

No, you include Lara in the top 6, put Gilchrist at 7 and still have 5 bowling options with Hadlee, Marshall, Warne, McGrath and Sobers.

 

[Slifer]

Hadlee is at 7 in that lineup which is insane so I assume the former.

Yeah but with Bradman and to a lesser extent Gilchrist, imo you can afford that. But i can understand the argument against Hadlee being so high.

 

[Slifer]

No, you include Lara in the top 6, put Gilchrist at 7 and still have 5 bowling options with Hadlee, Marshall, Warne, McGrath and Sobers.

Lol yeah tempting but seeing that I'm from the WI, that would've been a little too biased on my part...

 

[subshakerz]

Lol yeah tempting but seeing that I'm from the WI, that would've been a little too biased on my part...

It's not bias though. All of the top six are in the ten best bats of all-time. You could argue for someone like Smith, Chappell or Border but don't think they are ahead of Lara. Smith might end up ahead of him though.