honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
I reply as I see... hard to keep multiquoting and then post in one shot.
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Is Ricky Ponting a better batsman than Brian Lara?
- Thread starter Avada Kedavra
- Start date
Streetwise
Banned
You could believe that but then you are believing it was all down to Samuels that Lara lost the captaincy.
But wasnt it Viv that called for Lara to resign.
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
The same Viv who was singing his praises in 2002.. Look, I am not saying Lara is not at fault. I am juz saying to put everything down to him does not seem reasonable... There have been mistakes from both sides and most importantly from the WICB, who have never even TRIED to take responsibility to handle a "star" like Lara.. Things work differently in the Windies than it does in any other cricket playing country and there is just too much jealousy, suspicion and backstabbing that goes on there... The WICB erred by not placing confidence in certain guys but instead breeding suspicion amongst the seniors.. Obviously, it didn't help that Lara was so publicly ambitious but there is nothing about him that suggests a man who would sell out his team for his personal gains... I have seen just about every innings of him (when I couldn't catch it live, at least caught highlights. Mostly timezones meant I was able to watch when he was at the crease) and I am yet to recall even a single innings when it seemed he was putting himself ahead of the side... I have seen him hit out trying to get runs with no partners left when he could have easily played for the red ink...
Craig
World Traveller
I agree on this. Will be my last post on the topic.
Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
For players who have played 20+ times than that, 10 innings is very small. It is less than 5% of their innings.
That's the thing...genius, ability, style, etc, are a means to an end to make runs. In the end, Ponting was more consistent against the best in the 90s (if you wish to make that argument) and certainly more consistent overall.
This rather arbitrary and childish argument people have running here about "greatness" etc doesn't hold up for serious discussion. There is no serious argument here to put Lara ahead by a "mile, everyday, etc" as some are expressing. Fine, say he is better, but the difference is small, if any. That's what gets my goat; when people play the fanboy card and exaggerate. For christ's sake people are using "aura" as a reason to why Lara was better.
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Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
Whenever he played him. Ponting averages 46 in matches against Donald. He scored a century in his first inning against Donald in 97.
They've both played roughly the same amount of innings. Why does no. of games matter here?
Apparently Lara also had a pet Unicorn.
Yeah, he did.
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Shri
Mr. Glass
Black_Warrior
Cricketer Of The Year
Wasim?? Are you sure about that? He had serious problems with Wasim's incoming deliveries from over the wicket ..was lbw a couple of times.
Statistics by itself is often misleading. Incomplete statistics is dangerous. Ponting's average of 119 in Pakistan comes from just 1 test match in which he managed an unbeaten 76 in one of the innings. Lara I agree has not been at his best against Pakistan with Wasim and Waqar but Ponting has been no better.
Well I have heard this argument a lot against Lara..people have even used this against Sunil Gavaskar. The point is, if they didnt score those "huge runs on the pretext of drawing games" they wouldnt have been drawn games. Its not like Lara knew it was going to be a draw and then decided to score a century. Often his centuries were able to ensure draws because the team was so terrible. In a similar situation, a Ponting or even an Inzamam (who has an astonishing 17 match winning knocks out of 25) century would have ensured a victory. When Lara had half a decent team like he did in 99, he along with Ambrose and Walsh managed to win 2 test matches against a very strong Australian side.
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Black_Warrior
Cricketer Of The Year
Ignore!
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Black_Warrior
Cricketer Of The Year
Well given a team comprising of McGrath, Warne, Gillespie, Hayden, Langer, as opposed to the teams Lara and Tendulkar had to captain, I am not sure if "leading from the front" should count really. Ponting's record has not been as great as it was since the retirement of Langer, Warne and McGrath. Its not bad, but he is not scoring those centuries at will like he was at one point between 02-05.
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Black_Warrior
Cricketer Of The Year
I have voted for Lara just about takes it. The only factor against Lara, which is always the case when comparing him with any other great batsman is his consistency, which he himself had admitted could have been better. But despite that I believe he is a better player than Ponting. Why?
It has already been said by various people in this topic. And its not based on statistics, and maybe not backed by it either as Ponting probably has more runs and centuries than Lara. But I would just like to quote someone else in this topic, "some players just transcend statistical analysis and have to be seen to be fully appreciated. Brian Charles is one of them." I have seen Brian Charles bat, I have seen him bat against Murali in Sri Lanka, and despite being a Tendulkar fan, I will gladly admit that I have never seen even Tendulkar able to play Murali that way. Ofcourse he toyed with Warne but thats a different debate :P
Whenever people talk about Lara, they are reminded of his God given ability to play spin, his use of his feet, coming to the pitch of the ball, just magic.
Its not that there is anything wrong with Ponting, he has been phenomenal, perhaps the batsman of this decade but he is not as good as Lara against spin. Thats the most blunt way of putting it, it does not make him a poor player of spin, I am sure he has centuries in India and SL, but so does Inzamam ul Haq, Steve Waugh, Jacques Kallis, Rahul Dravid etc. And they are all great players but at this level of greatness, its not just about scoring that hundred against Murali or Kumble, there is more and that you have to experience by watching him bat, not by logging onto cricinfo and doing a stats analysis.
I remember an incident between Kaneria and Lara in 06 in Pakistan. Kaneria had beaten Lara in the last ball of an over and walked upto him to give him a glare. During the advertisements, despite being a Pakistan supporter I quickly called my best friend (a Lara fan) to turn on his tv wherever he was and watch the next over because thats a sight he would not want to miss. Lara did not disappoint, Kaneria went for 26 runs, but it was the manner in which he toyed with Kaneria, playing with his mind, dictating to Kaneria where to bowl, and then managing to dispatch it with disdain over the park that mesmerised us. The two other times I had seen a batsman do that was Tendulkar against Warne and Lara against Murali in 01. I think Lara got a double in that match but these are things that statistics wont tell you. These are things you have to just sit back and enjoy like I did that day although it was against my team.
It has already been said by various people in this topic. And its not based on statistics, and maybe not backed by it either as Ponting probably has more runs and centuries than Lara. But I would just like to quote someone else in this topic, "some players just transcend statistical analysis and have to be seen to be fully appreciated. Brian Charles is one of them." I have seen Brian Charles bat, I have seen him bat against Murali in Sri Lanka, and despite being a Tendulkar fan, I will gladly admit that I have never seen even Tendulkar able to play Murali that way. Ofcourse he toyed with Warne but thats a different debate :P
Whenever people talk about Lara, they are reminded of his God given ability to play spin, his use of his feet, coming to the pitch of the ball, just magic.
Its not that there is anything wrong with Ponting, he has been phenomenal, perhaps the batsman of this decade but he is not as good as Lara against spin. Thats the most blunt way of putting it, it does not make him a poor player of spin, I am sure he has centuries in India and SL, but so does Inzamam ul Haq, Steve Waugh, Jacques Kallis, Rahul Dravid etc. And they are all great players but at this level of greatness, its not just about scoring that hundred against Murali or Kumble, there is more and that you have to experience by watching him bat, not by logging onto cricinfo and doing a stats analysis.
I remember an incident between Kaneria and Lara in 06 in Pakistan. Kaneria had beaten Lara in the last ball of an over and walked upto him to give him a glare. During the advertisements, despite being a Pakistan supporter I quickly called my best friend (a Lara fan) to turn on his tv wherever he was and watch the next over because thats a sight he would not want to miss. Lara did not disappoint, Kaneria went for 26 runs, but it was the manner in which he toyed with Kaneria, playing with his mind, dictating to Kaneria where to bowl, and then managing to dispatch it with disdain over the park that mesmerised us. The two other times I had seen a batsman do that was Tendulkar against Warne and Lara against Murali in 01. I think Lara got a double in that match but these are things that statistics wont tell you. These are things you have to just sit back and enjoy like I did that day although it was against my team.
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Avada Kedavra
Banned
If you actually bother reading through the discussion, you will see know that it was a typo. It should have been "He didn't make his debut in the 2000s". And yes, he did.
Avada Kedavra
Banned
Facts ? I've haven't left out facts. Are you perturbed because the only place Lara manages a 50+ average away from home is Sri Lanka (that too because of 1 very good series) ?
Avada Kedavra
Banned
If one batsman scores 197 against Akram, and another fails to score a single 100, what does it mean ? I've seen both Lara and Ponting at their respective primes, Ponting is a superior player of pace bowling without doubt.
For me the "match winning centuries" mean nothing. My point is that he abused his power of being a captain, and as he was leading a weak side, he could bat on for personal goals. Ponting will never break the 400, not because he can't, but because Australia play to win and as a result Ponting will never have the time. Even Lara's own team mates criticized the 400. Viv Richards himself was skeptical. The number of centuries in matches won obviously depends on the kind of bowlers you have. A Tendulkar or Lara would never have as many match winning centuries in tests because they never had quality bowlers (Lara did have Amby and Walsh in the 1990s though). That's not the issue.
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wpdavid
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
At this moment in time? Yes, I'd have thought so.We've had a lot of Tendulkar vs Ponting and Lara vs Tendulkar debates, but somehow I've never seen a Lara vs Ponting debate. Who do you think is better? I think Ponting is better, anyone challenge that?
Avada Kedavra
Banned
Avada Kedavra
Banned
No it's Lara who is a home track bully.
Avada Kedavra
Banned
Stats aren't the be all and end all of the argument, but they are certainly suggestive. Funnily enough, people say stats aren't important only when it's not in their favour.
I have said this many times - better batsman to watch DOES NOT mean better batsman. If I tell you that I like watching Afridi bat much more than watching Inzamam bat, would it make Afridi a better batsman than Inzamam?
Streetwise
Banned
This thread is not about who is better Lara or Ponting. That matter is beyond dispute, Ponting has scored more runs at a better average than Lara.
Its a bit like trying to argue that even though a sprinter is a fraction of a second slower than Usian Bolt he is a better sprinter because he has prettier shorts or has a smoother style, the gold medal always goes to the fastest sprinter.
Ponting has been far to successful and an Australian to boot for him to be popular or to get the recognition he deserves but he has been the best batsman over the last 14 years bar none.
Its a bit like trying to argue that even though a sprinter is a fraction of a second slower than Usian Bolt he is a better sprinter because he has prettier shorts or has a smoother style, the gold medal always goes to the fastest sprinter.
Ponting has been far to successful and an Australian to boot for him to be popular or to get the recognition he deserves but he has been the best batsman over the last 14 years bar none.
Black_Warrior
Cricketer Of The Year
I think Lara played just 3 test matches against Wasim and Waqar in 97. When Pakistan toured WI in 2000, Lara was on a personal break from cricket, in 2002 when WI played Pakistan in Sharjah, and in 2003, Wasim and Waqar retired. Wasim in 99 was way past his prime, and was having a torrid time as a captain, as a bowler. Whereas Wasim in 97, although not as fast, was having a fantastic time as a captain and a bowler.
Point is, 3 test matches is just not enough to judge players of this calibre, not Lara, not Ponting. The thing going in Lara's favour is his peak coincided with the peaks of other fast bowling greats like Donald, McGrath, Pollock etc and spinners like Warne and Murali.
Ponting's peak from 2003 had no Wasim-Waqar, Ambrose-Walsh, Donald, and he wasnt as good against Murali as Lara was, I dont think anyone can dispute that. The best fast bowlers during Ponting's peak were Shoaib Akhtar, Steve Harmisson, Dale Steyn, Chaminda Vaas.
Now if Ponting was at his peak in the 1990s, how would he have fared against the bowlers mentioned above? Honestly we dont know. But based on the evidence available and the quality of the fast bowlers both Ponting and Lara peaked against, it is not fair to conclude that Ponting was a better player of fast bowling than Lara.
Maybe the 400 he got was abuse of power, maybe he did that because the series was already lost, we dont know. But thats just one example. His performances against a pretty strong South African side at home in 2003 was phenomena to say the least, he did not manage to win a test match, but the few that were draws were not abuse of power, but his batting that enabled WI to draw those matches.