Is Dhoni greatest OdI cricketer off all-time

honestbharani · Aug 25, 2020

OverratedSanity said:
when everyone started filling their boots and averages started skyrocketing.

Yeah coz the noughties were notoriously tougher for batsmen than the 2010s... 8-)

TheJediBrah · Aug 25, 2020

stephen said:
I think all this isolation has driven hb a bit more crazy than he already was tbh.

he's always waxed and waned tbf

honestbharani · Aug 25, 2020

stephen and tjb's only response when proven wrong is to call the other one "crazy"... hmmmmmmm...... explains a lot.

stephen · Aug 25, 2020

honestbharani said:
Yeah coz Watson, Tendulkar, Amla, Watson and Dilshan never played before the last 5 years. And of course, ODIs in the last 5 years should not count coz they prove you wrong.

8 of the guys in the top 18 (those with 1k runs or more) debuted 2013 or later. If the rest, only Tendulkar and Watson debuted before 2008.

You're literally making the argument that modern players are better than older players.

stephen · Aug 25, 2020

honestbharani said:
prove

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

honestbharani · Aug 25, 2020

stephen said:
8 of the guys in the top 18 (those with 1k runs or more) debuted 2013 or later. If the rest, only Tendulkar and Watson debuted before 2008.

You're literally making the argument that modern players are better than older players.

No, I am making the argument there have been better openers than Gilchrist in the history of the game. Many more than there are better middle order batsmen than MSD. Its simple and you are the one who keeps shifting goalposts every time it is proven wrong. First its to bring up the completely arbitrary keeper-opener condition and now this.

honestbharani · Aug 25, 2020

stephen said:
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

honestbharani · Aug 25, 2020

Adjusting that filter to average above 37, given Gilly averaged lesser, we get an ever better list.

Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

ankitj · Aug 25, 2020

OverratedSanity said:
Thats because Sehwag's stats in ODIs were mediocre until the last 2-3 years of his career.. the guy was averaging barely over 30 until around 2008, after which he had a few amazingly productive years during a time when everyone started filling their boots and averages started skyrocketing. Its a very lopsided and uneven career overall. Similar to how Sangakkara's trajectory went.

So there's a reason why I never had him as high in my head as his averages suggests.

honestbharani · Aug 25, 2020

Sehwag was never a great ODI player. He was far better in tests but if you look at the type of player he was, you would think ODIs would be his best format. Its the same with Gilly. And with Slater.

ankitj · Aug 25, 2020

OverratedSanity said:
Ok, I have a question for you here. I think even the most ardent Dhoni fan will admit that he has mostly been sub par in the last 3-4 years of his career. He lost matches for the team with alarming regularity which even you (I think) admitted while watching it all happen). Lets just consider his last year for this. He managed a 60+ average in 2019. Would you agree that his actual contributions were nowhere near as good as Rohit's during the year (who only averaged 57)? Its a small sample of course but the point is that if the difference in their averages completely lie about their actual quality in this case, you have to admit that average is a much more wonky stat than people admit.

I agree with your broader point that there can be players who don't have extra gears and general smarts to set up games for victory.

Dhoni did in 2019 play a few innings to rescue team from difficult spot. His hundred in the game where Yuvraj also scored his career best is an example and he also did well enough in Australia to get MoS. So his average isn't entirely unearned and within bounds of small sample margin of error (which will quite large for a single calendar year) makes sense. And 60 vs 57 even over an entire career is much of muchness.

Dan · Aug 25, 2020

Oh my god let's hand out some mod instructions to try to disinfect this utter trainwreck of a thread.

If your post is focusing on the nationality of a poster or the country they support (real or perceived) of the poster, don't post it. Put the nationalistic rubbish away.
If all you're doing is quote-replying posts you hate with eyeroll or laughing emoji, give it a break.
Talking about posters as if they're not there is not on.
Posts that aren't complimentary of players you like are not personal attacks; do not escalate them to personal attacks
Racialised jibes at posters you don't like are plainly unacceptable

Cut it out or I'm testing out the new infraction buttons.

vcs · Aug 25, 2020

ODI average being flattering for players who rarely make an impact is definitely a thing these days. See for example, David Miller, who has pretty decent statistics and has been around for a decade, but never contributes when needed. You could argue Rayudu was in this category as well, people were questioning why he didn't get into the WC squad with an average close to 50. It's a different matter that his replacement Vijay Shankar fared even worse.

TheJediBrah · Aug 25, 2020

Dhoni post-2015 is another example of that. His stats look fine at face value, but his performances with batting style and tempo for the game situation imploded. Turned from an unparalleled match-winner into a genuine match-loser at times. You wouldn't get that just looking at his numbers.

TheJediBrah · Aug 25, 2020

Dan said:
Oh my god let's hand out some mod instructions to try to disinfect this utter trainwreck of a thread.

If your post is focusing on the nationality of a poster or the country they support (real or perceived) of the poster, don't post it. Put the nationalistic rubbish away.

If all you're doing is quote-replying posts you hate with eyeroll or laughing emoji, give it a break.

Talking about posters as if they're not there is not on.

Posts that aren't complimentary of players you like are not personal attacks; do not escalate them to personal attacks

Racialised jibes at posters you don't like are plainly unacceptable

Cut it out or I'm testing out the new infraction buttons.

this is great

stephen · Aug 25, 2020

How about we look at contemporaries of Gilchrist.

Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Plenty of players averaged more than him but very few struck at >86. If those that did, only Tendulkar had a higher average.

Daemon · Aug 25, 2020

OverratedSanity said:
Ok, I have a question for you here. I think even the most ardent Dhoni fan will admit that he has mostly been sub par in the last 3-4 years of his career. He lost matches for the team with alarming regularity which even you (I think) admitted while watching it all happen). Lets just consider his last year for this. He managed a 60+ average in 2019. Would you agree that his actual contributions were nowhere near as good as Rohit's during the year (who only averaged 57)? Its a small sample of course but the point is that if the difference in their averages completely lie about their actual quality in this case, you have to admit that average is a much more wonky stat than people admit.

Averages mean a lot more for 1-4 imo.

Dhoni was actually pretty good in 2019, his overrated semi final knock aside. Of course nowhere near Rohit though.

OverratedSanity · Aug 25, 2020

ankitj said:
And 60 vs 57 even over an entire career is much of muchness.

Yes, but the 57 here was much better in reality than the 60. Far more valuable than a 3 point difference in average would suggest.

The point is that average in ODIs can be very misleading. So comparing two players averages as if its a 1 to 1 is silly, especially if they play different positions and their eras didnt even fully overlap.

stephen · Aug 25, 2020

Why the batting records of ODI batsmen from 2010 onwards can't be trusted is evidenced by the fact that the third most successful seam bowler was Perera, who averaged 32. Comparing that to the 2000s and 90s, you had Ntini and Srinath who averaged 25 and 28 respectively.

Daemon · Aug 25, 2020

Dhoni wasn't single handedly 'losing' us matches imo, as a lower order bat playing with such a gun top order it's pretty hard to do that.

But when the top order failed you could be sure he'd be there to suck the complete life out the remainder of the innings and leave it to others to play the aggressor. He'd play at an SR of 50 for the whole middle overs and the others would try to score quicker and get out. Then he'd biff 2-3 boundaries at the end to end up with a 70 odd SR or something. It was garbage cricket.

We nearly lost to Afghanistan when he did that - https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...s-india-28th-match-icc-cricket-world-cup-2019

Definitely more examples out there.

Is Dhoni greatest OdI cricketer off all-time

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