Is Dale Steyn the worst ever best fast bowler in the world?

[L Trumper]

Having watched Steyn alot in the last 4 years i think he has done that a long time before the recent ENG series TBH. As i said before vs IND 2008 he got Sehwag out with the 3 card trick & Vaughan vs ENG 2008 (although some may argue Vaughan to the end of his career sort of forgot where his off-stump was)

I just think maybe in the last two series he targeted those batsmen specially which such plans, thus we have seen such dismissals a bit more regularly.

I am not sure about that because vaughan is a walking wicket through out the series.

He did that before but not as consistent enough. Steyn himself said he did a lot of practice in last year for this in yesterdays press conference. Considering there are only 2 or 3 incidents like these dismissals in two years and 4 dismissals in last 2 tests I'd say it is a new trick to his armory.

 

[Richard]

he is 26 I say he has atleast 7-8 minimum if injuries dont haunt him.

How many bowlers have bowled with Steyn's style (ie, all-out attack and forget how many runs you concede) for more than a few years?

Can't think of any TBH.

It's a style that goes with youngish bowlers.

I think it's a realistic hope that Steyn can keep this sort of form (ie, the form he's shown for the last 3-and-a-bit years) up for another 3-4 years. Anything beyond that is a substantial bonus.

Also let's not forget that since 2007/08 he's completely carried the South Africa attack. Aside from him there's been at best one other decent-ish bowler; at worst there's been no-one. That could change if Morne Morkel were to come of age, and there's of course Parnell to consider, but equally it might remain the way it has been for a while yet.

 

[Richard]

He's got the best strike rate of any fast bowler to have taken more than 150 Test wickets.

Of fast bowlers who have taken more than 20 wickets, only Lohmann, Proctor and Bond have taken their wickets faster. If Steyn takes 7 more wickets in this match, he trumps Lillee and Waqar as the fastest quick to 200, if he takes 7 more on this tour he equals them.

Steyn's massively underappreciated. In a batsman dominated era, to be averaging 23 and striking at such a phenominal rate is an incredible achievement.

Wonder what Steyn's above figures will be if Bangladesh are excluded? That certainly makes a fair impact on Bond's. If the impact is minimal (as I suspect it may be) it thus means that Steyn in his career of serious Test matches so far has struck quicker than any bowler since the dawn of the 20th-century except a two-series wonder in Procter.

Of course, however, the thing to remember is that Steyn is currently in the middle of his career. His figures since 2005/06 are equivalent to Waqar's 1990/91-1994/95, and I'd venture to suggest Waqar's equivalent figures would be better. Comparing a bowler in mid-career - on the basis of career figures - with those who have finished their careers is always pretty pointless.

 

[Richard]

Why is it that he has such a (relatively) poor ODI record? He's also not played that many games.

If that stays the same (and as pointed-out it's not been so since the start of calendar-year 2009 as it was before), it's simple - bowlers of Steyn's ilk are generally not good ODI bowlers.

Have compared Steyn with Waqar many times (mostly because bowlers like them are so rare and thus it's difficult to think of anyone else) and the comparison also applies there.

 

[L Trumper]

Wonder what Steyn's above figures will be if Bangladesh are excluded? That certainly makes a fair impact on Bond's. If the impact is minimal (as I suspect it may be) it thus means that Steyn in his career of serious Test matches so far has struck quicker than any bowler since the dawn of the 20th-century except a two-series wonder in Procter.

Of course, however, the thing to remember is that Steyn is currently in the middle of his career. His figures since 2005/06 are equivalent to Waqar's 1990/91-1994/95, and I'd venture to suggest Waqar's equivalent figures would be better. Comparing a bowler in mid-career - on the basis of career figures - with those who have finished their careers is always pretty pointless.

I am pretty sure about that. At the same time if steyn got some injuries just like waqar he is going to end a lot bad. Hope he didn't pickup any injuries for the next couple of years atleast. Hopefully no back injury until his retirement.

As far as considering Bangladesh, Steyn did get a lot of cheap wickets but he did perform well against aussies and rectified his record against ENG and blew away IND twice so he is right up there with 90's tearaways. Only problem is how long can he continue this form?

 

[aussie]

Thought it was just a straighter delivery two years ago.

These two dismissals from the IND 08 series where certainly big inswingers akin to the first innings of the current test rather than just straight balls . Too bad CW you can't had video analysis, since i remember this quiet vividly & have the tapes to help prove this.

Ahmedabad 08

Steyn to Sehwag, OUT, what an important wicket for South Africa! Steyn pitches it outside off and gets it to come back inwards, Sehwag shapes to cut but is cramped for room and he manages a thick inside edge onto his offstump

V Sehwag b Steyn 6 (23m 12b 1x4 0x6) SR: 50.00

Kanpur 08

Steyn to Sehwag, OUT, lbw! South Africa are thrilled! Steyn follows several short balls with a good length one that pitches just outside off and angles into the right-hander, Sehwag hardly moves his feet while trying to defend and gets hit in line with off stump, that ball is heading for middle stump and Asad Rauf raises the finger in a flash

V Sehwag lbw b Steyn 8 (21m 14b 2x4 0x6) SR: 57.14

I am not sure about that because vaughan is a walking wicket through out the series.

Ha ye thats why i said you could argue Vaughan didn't know where his off-stump was during that series.

He did that before but not as consistent enough. Steyn himself said he did a lot of practice in last year for this in yesterdays press conference. Considering there are only 2 or 3 incidents like these dismissals in two years and 4 dismissals in last 2 tests I'd say it is a new trick to his armory.

Fair enough, i'm willing to agree that he has probably mastered it now. Just that he definately had it long before this test & the recent ENG series.

 

[L Trumper]

Fair enough, i'm willing to agree that he has probably mastered it now. Just that he definately had it long before this test & the recent ENG series.

Yeah he had it before ENG tour i never said otherwise. I am just saying that people are taking notice now because it is damn effective in the last two series.

 

[aussie]

Wonder what Steyn's above figures will be if Bangladesh are excluded? That certainly makes a fair impact on Bond's. If the impact is minimal (as I suspect it may be) it thus means that Steyn in his career of serious Test matches so far has struck quicker than any bowler since the dawn of the 20th-century except a two-series wonder in Procter.

Of course, however, the thing to remember is that Steyn is currently in the middle of his career. His figures since 2005/06 are equivalent to Waqar's 1990/91-1994/95, and I'd venture to suggest Waqar's equivalent figures would be better. Comparing a bowler in mid-career - on the basis of career figures - with those who have finished their careers is always pretty pointless.

1. I actually did this checkup with BANG this morning haa. If we take out his performances vs ENG 04/05 when he wasn't ready for tests. From NZ 06 to now he averages 21.

Even if you take out wickets vs BANG in this NZ 06 - IND 2010 (current test so far) its 23. So overall he is still fine.

2. That Waqar comparison crossed my mind as well. I'd be tempted to say Waqar of 90/91 - 94/95 was a better by whisker, but damn its soo close. If Steyn doesn't suffer a mid career injury i'd say we could put him ahead of Waqar.

What will be interesting to see also is if Steyn as his pace declines, how he adjusts.

 

[popepouri]

These two dismissals from the IND 08 series where certainly big inswingers akin to the first innings of the current test rather than just straight balls . Too bad CW you can't had video analysis, since i remember this quiet vividly & have the tapes to help prove this.

Fair enough. I found the footage on Youtube and I agree with you.

 

[Richard]

As far as considering Bangladesh, Steyn did get a lot of cheap wickets but he did perform well against aussies and rectified his record against ENG and blew away IND twice so he is right up there with 90's tearaways. Only problem is how long can he continue this form?

Just in case anyone doubted I wasn't for a second implying that Steyn's record with Test-standard sides only included is significantly different to those with Test-standard-sides-plus-Bangladesh. I was merely saying I wonder if Steyn, in respect of records named by our friend GingerFurball, goes ahead of 1 or 2 more by virtue of having the chance to bowl at Bangladesh or not.

I know for certain, as I say, that he'll go ahead of Bond if Bangladesh are ignored; I just wonder if he'll go behind anyone else in turn.

 

[Richard]

1. I actually did this checkup with BANG this morning haa. If we take out his performances vs ENG 04/05 when he wasn't ready for tests. From NZ 06 to now he averages 21.

Even if you take out wickets vs BANG in this NZ 06 - IND 2010 (current test so far) its 23. So overall he is still fine.

As I said - was meaning more is he still ahead of everyone else bar Procter in terms of SR.

2. That Waqar comparison crossed my mind as well. I'd be tempted to say Waqar of 90/91 - 94/95 was a better by whisker, but damn its soo close. If Steyn doesn't suffer a mid career injury i'd say we could put him ahead of Waqar.

What will be interesting to see also is if Steyn as his pace declines, how he adjusts.

Steyn bowling as he currently bowls will be a far lesser bowler at ~83mph than ~90. I doubt he has the ability to bowl differently to how he currently bowls, and for as long as he is capable of bowling ~90mph then I don't remotely want him to try anything different.

It'll be interesting to see such a time if and when it arrives, but I hope we have a lengthy time of enjoying him as he currently is before it does.

 

[Furball]

Just in case anyone doubted I wasn't for a second implying that Steyn's record with Test-standard sides only included is significantly different to those with Test-standard-sides-plus-Bangladesh. I was merely saying I wonder if Steyn, in respect of records named by our friend GingerFurball, goes ahead of 1 or 2 more by virtue of having the chance to bowl at Bangladesh or not.

I know for certain, as I say, that he'll go ahead of Bond if Bangladesh are ignored; I just wonder if he'll go behind anyone else in turn.

If we remove Bangladesh from the equation, Steyn is still 2nd to Lohmann amongst quicks with more than 100 Test wickets, and also strikes faster than Bond.

Steyn's overall Test record is 193 wickets @23.06 , SR 38.9. Remove Bangladesh and it's 171@23.81, SR 39.9. If we apply Richard's "Atherton Law" and remove his debut series vs England in 2004/05, it becomes 185 @ 21.81, SR 37.3, or without Bangladesh 163 @ 22.43, SR 38.1

Under the "Atherton Law" conditions, Steyn is comfortably faster at striking than the rest of the competition.

 

[Richard]

Only trouble is you'd have to apply "plateau period law" (which'd be a much more accurate term than "Atherton's law" - Atherton is merely the most prominent example of plateau law that I've yet talked of - good piece of terminology though, reckon it'll become as ingrained in CW terminology as first-chance average) to others as well if you applied it to Steyn... which would be possible, but would take whoever was doing it ages. As I thought, Bangladesh's removal doesn't make any significant difference - 37.3 to 38.1.

Either way, pretty clear then that if Steyn's career was to end tomorrow he'd have the second-best strike-rate of all bowlers with 20 Test wickets since the dawn of the 20th-century, counting Test-standard teams only.

Fortunately it shouldn't end tomorrow, and we'll see how it continues to evolve.

 

[GuyFromLancs]

If that stays the same (and as pointed-out it's not been so since the start of calendar-year 2009 as it was before), it's simple - bowlers of Steyn's ilk are generally not good ODI bowlers.

Have compared Steyn with Waqar many times (mostly because bowlers like them are so rare and thus it's difficult to think of anyone else) and the comparison also applies there.

Bowlers who aim at the stumps always go for a few runs. Waqar was not economical, not even in ODIs, but I still remember him being regarded as a good ODI bowler because he could run through teams on his day. Look at the 5 wicket hauls as evidence, even getting a record 3 in a row in the early 90s.

Good team needs players like this and dour Pollock types.

Personally I welcome a test bowler who actually tries to bowl out the opposition instead of trying to entice unforced errors.

 

[aussie]

Only trouble is you'd have to apply "plateau period law" (which'd be a much more accurate term than "Atherton's law" - Atherton is merely the most prominent example of plateau law that I've yet talked of - good piece of terminology though, reckon it'll become as ingrained in CW terminology as first-chance average) to others as well if you applied it to Steyn... which would be possible, but would take whoever was doing it ages. As I thought, Bangladesh's removal doesn't make any significant difference - 37.3 to 38.1.

Either way, pretty clear then that if Steyn's career was to end tomorrow he'd have the second-best strike-rate of all bowlers with 20 Test wickets since the dawn of the 20th-century, counting Test-standard teams only.

Fortunately it shouldn't end tomorrow, and we'll see how it continues to evolve.

Sometimes in debates on this site (not having a dig at anyone) its almost as if people go into a fit when you defend a player based on his "plateau period". For example lets say a batsman averaged 38 when he retired & if one can prove that in his "pleteau period" he averad 40-45 - the first attack is always that you are stats picking. Which sometimes can be frustrating when debating with people, especially when you yourself as fan may have watched the period in which you are justfying that "plateau period" of that 40-45 average.

Overall i certainly do think cricket fans in general rather the sterotype position of judging players on face value average & dont like to accept peripheral factors that do affect players overall career average by the time they retire.

 

[Richard]

Bowlers who aim at the stumps always go for a few runs. Waqar was not economical, not even in ODIs, but I still remember him being regarded as a good ODI bowler because he could run through teams on his day. Look at the 5 wicket hauls as evidence, even getting a record 3 in a row in the early 90s.

Good team needs players like this and dour Pollock types.

Personally I welcome a test bowler who actually tries to bowl out the opposition instead of trying to entice unforced errors.

Welcome it in Tests; less so in ODIs. In ODIs consistent accuracy is far more important than the ability to bowl wicket-taking deliveries.

 

[GuyFromLancs]

But it is contrived and can be boring. Never really rated finger spinners myself (in general, there are exceptions) but pretty much anyone can have a go at it in ODIs.

 

[Faisal1985]

I think Steyn has put up a great show to shut his critics.....this dude can bowl anything...on any track.....outswingers...in dippers....reverse swing....bouncers....yorkers....and at good consistent pace....

I will certainly rate him as the best fast bowler at this time....

 

[Richard]

But it is contrived and can be boring.

Accurate bowling is contrived? And obviously boredom is in the eye of the beholder, but personally there's nothing I find more fascinating in a limited-overs game of reasonable length (ie, ideally 60 - but in this day-and-age we have to settle for 50 - overs) than some really good accurate medium-fast\fast-medium bowling with the wicketkeeper up to the stumps and the field voluntarily mostly up (with the option to drop certain men back at strategic points) and batsmen trying to find ways to score. Far, far better than seeing wayward stuff smashed all over the place during the field-restrictions or average part-timers being milked for easy singles with the field back.

Never really rated finger spinners myself (in general, there are exceptions) but pretty much anyone can have a go at it in ODIs.

What's that got to do with the above?

And personally I consider that there is a certain type of fingerspinner which can be very successful in ODIs (those who bowl fast and very flat with a bit of spin), then there's the odd special case (Saqlain and Harbhajan with their Doosras; Vettori with his incredible guile and quick wits) but mostly fingerspinners are not capable of containing top-quality batsmen in ODIs on wickets without significant grip (be that in the form of slowness and\or turn), however accurate they are.

 

[Richard]

I think Steyn has put up a great show to shut his critics.....this dude can bowl anything...on any track.....outswingers...in dippers....reverse swing....bouncers....yorkers....and at good consistent pace....

I will certainly rate him as the best fast bowler at this time....

Something else to note - as I didn't watch the game in question I can't say it's more than a possibility that's occurred to me - is that maybe Steyn has produced the performance of a lifetime at the best possible time. From what everyone's said about that spell it sounds like the sort of thing that might well prove the best spell he ever bowls, and judging by South Africa's first-innings this match would presumably have been one of those pointless bat-athons but for Steyn's spell - seems like he might've turned a certain bore-draw into an easy victory.