In terms of match impact, is Botham better than Tendulkar and McGrath?

[kyear2]

I don't think anyone bar Bradman can compete with ATG bowlers (especially the top 10 or so) based on match impact solely, simply because of the nature of test cricket and how important taking 20 wickets is. That's not to say that the ATG bowlers are the best cricketers, but test cricket in itself works I'm such a way that they have the max impact.
So on match impact: McGrath>Botham>Tendulkar

Don't think Botham was consistent enough, it did it long enough to be ahead of Sachin, but that's my personal opinion.

And while I do believe that taking 20 wickets for the least amount of runs is the primary objective (hence also why slips are so important), and as such pacers (especially) are more impactful, it's not leagues about batsmen, as you still need to set totals.

So no need to place pacers all at the top, you still judge by quality, which is what's wrong here in this "the top players are all all rounders" narrative.

And as Subz loves to point out, two great allies to to an attack taking 20 wickets are score board pressure and a great cordon, so if we're truly looking for impact and value, the ATG batsman and ATG slip should be right up there, if not above the all rounders. After all they're the only ones giving elite output in two areas.

So where's Hammond, Viv and Chappell in that top group?

Someone is going to tell me that Hadlee's rpi of 23 is so much ahead of Marshall's of 17, that's ones top 5 and the other isn't in consideration, especially considering one's the GOAT?

That Hadlee's rpi of 23 is more important, impactful or related to winning than what Hammond, Chappell, Richards etc did in the cordon?

Not aimed at you if course, but all relevant questions.

 

[Johan]

Hammond's pace bowling, leg spin and slip catching vs Imran's batting until circa 1988 could be a good discussion, whenever he switched from extreme bowling all rounder to batsman who bowls a little.

 

[subshakerz]

1977-1982

58 Tests.

3229 runs @ 37.8 and 11 centuries

262 wickets @ 24.53 and 20 5-Fer

Botham - A genuine match winner with bat & ball

Here

There is a misconception that Botham was just crap his last career half.

The first half he averaged 39 with the bat and 23 with the ball. ATG numbers.

The next 37 tests were less consistent with 31 with the bat and 135 wickets @33. Now for an off peak phase for an AR I would argue that is still quite good, near Kapil numbers.

He was only complete trash his last 14 tests from 87 onwards.

 

[subshakerz]

Don't think Botham was consistent enough, it did it long enough to be ahead of Sachin, but that's my personal opinion.

And while I do believe that taking 20 wickets for the least amount of runs is the primary objective (hence also why slips are so important), and as such pacers (especially) are more impactful, it's not leagues about batsmen, as you still need to set totals.

So no need to place pacers all at the top, you still judge by quality, which is what's wrong here in this "the top players are all all rounders" narrative.

And as Subz loves to point out, two great allies to to an attack taking 20 wickets are score board pressure and a great cordon, so if we're truly looking for impact and value, the ATG batsman and ATG slip should be right up there, if not above the all rounders. After all they're the only ones giving elite output in two areas.

So where's Hammond, Viv and Chappell in that top group?

Someone is going to tell me that Hadlee's rpi of 23 is so much ahead of Marshall's of 17, that's ones top 5 and the other isn't in consideration, especially considering one's the GOAT?

That Hadlee's rpi of 23 is more important, impactful or related to winning than what Hammond, Chappell, Richards etc did in the cordon?

Not aimed at you if course, but all relevant questions.

Why isn't Botham ahead of Tendulkar based on match impact?

 

[subshakerz]

If Botham needed to match McGraths bowling impact he needed to take around 80 to 100 more wickets.

Now the question is if those extra wickets have more value or over 5000 runs with 14 tons?

 

[Son Of Coco]

If you take away all the innings McGrath didn't average 50 with the bat, he averages 61, and that is enough to put him way ahead of Botham for mine. This is why he was known in his hometown of Narromine as 'Le magnifique haricot vert'.

 

[Johan]

If you take away all the innings McGrath didn't average 50 with the bat, he averages 61, and that is enough to put him way ahead of Botham for mine. This is why he was known in his hometown of Narromine as 'Le magnifique haricot vert'.

McGrath's 61 is probably New Zealand's second greatest contribution to the great game.

 

[govinda indian fan]

1977-1982


View attachment 48484

View attachment 48485

Where is viv in the batters list

 

[Johan]

Where is viv in the batters list

He was playing World Series Cricket, made 1,281 runs @ 55.8 in it.

 

[govinda indian fan]

He was playing World Series Cricket, made 1,281 runs @ 55.8 in it.

He did play in aus79/80 and 81/82 eng and pak 80 and eng at home in 81

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

True

14 hundreds and 27 5-Fers

A match winner with both the bat and ball

Not sure even Sobers, Imran, Hadlee or Kallis who are better all rounders can claim that.

They are great in their primary discipline who are decent in their secondary discipline whereas Botham was great with both bat & ball for half a decade

1961-1968
8 years
Gary Sobers
33 tests, 3106 runs 63 avg
125 wickets 28 avg

 

[sayon basak]

1977-1982

58 Tests.

3229 runs @ 37.8 and 11 centuries

262 wickets @ 24.53 and 20 5-Fer

Botham - A genuine match winner with bat & ball

Yeah he was a match winner with both, not because of these numbers, but because he actually won matches with both bat and ball.

 

[Migara]

True

14 hundreds and 27 5-Fers

A match winner with both the bat and ball

Not sure even Sobers, Imran, Hadlee or Kallis who are better all rounders can claim that.

They are great in their primary discipline who are decent in their secondary discipline whereas Botham was great with both bat & ball for half a decade

When you average 18 with the ball and 45 with the bat for 8 odd years, yeah, definitely beats it hands down.

1980 - 89, Imran averaged 44 with the bat and 19.1 with the ball. Five centuries in 54 matches and 18 five fors. That is uber domination.

 

[DrWolverine]

Yeah he was a match winner with both, not because of these numbers, but because he actually won matches with both bat and ball.

No one in history had those kind of numbers. Obviously it was because of how good he was with both the ball & bat at the same time.

 

[DrWolverine]

1980 - 89, Imran averaged 44 with the bat and 19.1 with the ball. Five centuries in 54 matches and 18 five fors. That is uber domination.

No doubt Imran was a better bowler.

But I am talking Botham over Imran as a batsman even if Imran had the better numbers

 

[Migara]

No doubt Imran was a better bowler.

But I am talking Botham over Imran as a batsman even if Imran had the better numbers

I would take Imran's or Hadlee's bowling over Botham's whole package.

 

[DrWolverine]

1980 - 89, Imran averaged 44 with the bat

1982-1990
Imran averaged 50 with the bat.

 

[Johan]

1980 - 89, Imran averaged 44 with the bat and 19.1 with the ball. Five centuries in 54 matches and 18 five fors. That is uber domination.

four hundreds between 1980-88, 31 Run-per-Innings and loads of downhill skiing. Not a match winner with the bat, wasn't until he dropped bowling.

 

[sayon basak]

1982-1990
Imran averaged 50 with the bat.

What about 1991?

 

[Migara]

four hundreds between 1980-88, 31 Run-per-Innings and loads of downhill skiing.