In terms of match impact, is Botham better than Tendulkar and McGrath?

[subshakerz]

four hundreds between 1980-88, 31 Run-per-Innings and loads of downhill skiing. Not a match winner with the bat, wasn't until he dropped bowling.

Ok but he was batting 6/7.

 

[subshakerz]

Did he get any injuries?
Or just that he was getting old and couldn’t bowl like before?

Lost his pace. Still.had control but after that had Waqar Wasim anyways.

 

[kyear2]

Hammond's pace bowling, leg spin and slip catching vs Imran's batting until circa 1988 could be a good discussion, whenever he switched from extreme bowling all rounder to batsman who bowls a little.

As an overall package I don't see where Imran's ahead. And before someone chimes in, not talking about "down grading one", it's that Hammond is too low.

In primary they're just about equal, 8th for a bowler and 11th for a batsman is a wash. Even anecdotally, it really close.

Hammond's GOAT slip status is at the very least equal to Imran's batting, the more than useful bowling is just the cherry in top.

And yes, Imran's rpi during the '74 to '88 period is 27. Really good for a no. 8, not quite the 50 number some use to elevate him to 3rd all time.

 

[kyear2]

Ok but he was batting 6/7.

Why must you make up silly ****.

He batted:
8 times at 6
43 times at 7
9 times at 8

I don't know why you keep saying this.

 

[subshakerz]

Why must you make up silly ****.

He batted:
8 times at 6
43 times at 7
9 times at 8

I don't know why you keep saying this.

Whatever my point still stands.

 

[subshakerz]

Hammond's GOAT slip status is at the very least equal to Imran's batting, the more than useful bowling is just the cherry in top.

No, a single slip is not equal to actual runs not matter how many times you repeat that claptrap.

 

[Victor Ian]

It's always the same ****. Botham is first picked in any atg team early career. Late career, he is not even considered. He shouldn't have been playing but England were ****. Some players manage a career of consistency and good on them. Botham doesn't have this, but while he was good he was God. More than 50 tests over 5 years is good enough. Id guess he has much more impact in his 5 years than McGrath or Tendulkar combined have in theirs.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Whatever my point still stands.

Being L Ratio'd by Kyear is quite a low ngl

 

[kyear2]

No, a single slip is not equal to actual runs not matter how many times you repeat that claptrap.

You do know we can disagree.

There's an entire poll that's practically equal right now.

There's Kimber who ranks them individually as 5th bowler, 2nd slip, then no. 8

When you have a guy who's your specialist at 2nd to the pacers and 1st to your spinner, yes the volume will come.

I'm tired and headed to bed, but I've asked you this multiple times.

The great Australian team from the late 90's till 2007 was arguably the most balanced team ever if not the greatest, definitely top 2. The had a brilliant cordon, a well above average tail and Waugh sr and fellow below all rounder standard options at 3 change. With all 3 no doubt playing vital roles, which do you think was more vital to their success. Waugh / Punter at 2nd, or Warne batting at 8?

The WI team that preceded then and the SA one that subsequently succeeded them, basically built the same way. It was all about taking 20 wickets.

I'm taking Sobers at 2nd before "main career" Imran's batting at 8. The man who caught everything over the 27 value bat, where even that number is served by a fair bit of downhill skiing / cashing in.

Hadlee over all as a cricketer yes, but I'm taking Kallis's catching 7 days a week over Hadlee's batting for a test team. Hell I'm taking Kallis's catching over Pollock's batting in the same team as well.

And the thing is, that's not just me. Multiple occasions when you hear pundits constructing teams, they reference catching and fielding as pre requisites if not at least considerations.

In the other thread, I went out of my way to ask multiple reputable, respected and neutral posters for their opinions and they shared similar opinions. There's a few I could and should have added, and I may still, but it points to the fact that it may not as cut and dry as you perceive.

And coming from someone who called me inflexible and unwilling to change my perspective, there's possibly a lesson for you to take from that as well.

 

[subshakerz]

With all 3 no doubt playing vital roles, which do you think was more vital to their success. Waugh / Punter at 2nd, or Warne batting at 8?

That's a bogus comparison because Punter/Waugh are elite slips and Warne is a normal no.8. if you have an elite no.8 like Pollock or Vettori, then he matters more.

I've given plenty of examples here why the tail made a difference. You never properly addressed this.

Sure.

Remember Australia had a relatively very good tail of Warne, Brett Lee and Gillespie off and on.

Vs SA 2002, Aus are 6-185 well behind SA as Warne scores a fifty and Gilly a ton as Aus get a matchwinning lead.

Vs Eng 2002, Australia are eight down and 100 behind Eng as Gillespie hangs with Gilly and they achieve parity and win eventually.

Vs Bang 2006 Gillespie hangs with Gilly who scores a ton as they are 250 runs behind and 7 down and they get close enough to eventually win.

Vs Pak 2004, Warne and Gillespie hang around with Langer long enough to take Aus from 230-6 to 381 and win the game.

Vs Eng 2005 Edgbaston as Warne and Brett Lee take Australia from sure loss at 8-175 to near win.

Vs Eng 2005 3rd test Warne and Lee hang with Ponting to draw the game.

Vs Eng 2005 4th test without Lee and Warne Australia likely lose by innings or easy 4th innings chase.

Vs SA 2006 3rd test Lee scores vital runs in both innings to win a close test.

Vs NZ 2001 3rd test without Warnes 99, Australia likely lose the game as they are struggling against a high score.

Vs Ind 2007/8, Aus tail with Symonds takes them from 6-134 to 463.

Vs Ind 2004, Aus are 7-350 in response to 705 and Gillespie helps takes them to 474 and eventually game drawn.

Vs Eng 2001 3rd test Gillespie hangs with Gilly to get them par with England in a low scoring contest.

Vs SL 99, Gillespie with Ponting save Aus from complete embarassment in the 1st innings

Vs WI 99 4th test Aus tail stretches the 1st innings which ends up being vital in winning the test.

There are more but I think I made the point.

Hadlee over all as a cricketer yes, but I'm taking Kallis's catching 7 days a week over Hadlee's batting for a test team. Hell I'm taking Kallis's catching over Pollock's batting in the same team as well.

So you really think a single slip quality matters more than a 30 average bat at no.8?

Not only are you grossly overestimating how many catches he will take compared to a normal slip, you fail to ever quantify an estimate at all.

Which means your opinion is half baked and Ill-informed.

 

[Coronis]

That's a bogus comparison because Punter/Waugh are elite slips and Warne is a normal no.8. if you have an elite no.8 like Pollock or Vettori, then he matters more.

I've given plenty of examples here why the tail made a difference. You never properly addressed this.




So you really think a single slip quality matters more than a 30 average bat at no.8?

Not only are you grossly overestimating how many catches he will take compared to a normal slip, you fail to ever quantify an estimate at all.

Which means your opinion is half baked and Ill-informed.

For some follow up here - Davis did a study studying field positions and dropped catches at each one, in the period 2000-2015.

29% of chances were missed at slip. One player only missed 14% of their chances (I’d love someone to guess this), and every other player was beyond 20%. The average cost of a dropped catch was ~33 runs. How many catch attempts would a single slip fielder receive per match?

 

[Johan]

For some follow up here - Davis did a study studying field positions and dropped catches at each one, in the period 2000-2015.

29% of chances were missed at slip. One player only missed 14% of their chances (I’d love someone to guess this), and every other player was beyond 20%. The average cost of a dropped catch was ~33 runs. How many catch attempts would a single slip fielder receive per match?

Nice try, Davis.

 

[Victor Ian]

For some follow up here - Davis did a study studying field positions and dropped catches at each one, in the period 2000-2015.

29% of chances were missed at slip. One player only missed 14% of their chances (I’d love someone to guess this), and every other player was beyond 20%. The average cost of a dropped catch was ~33 runs. How many catch attempts would a single slip fielder receive per match?

maybe near 2 per match for a good bowling unit. Just see how many catches smith has (200/118).

 

[subshakerz]

For some follow up here - Davis did a study studying field positions and dropped catches at each one, in the period 2000-2015.

29% of chances were missed at slip. One player only missed 14% of their chances (I’d love someone to guess this), and every other player was beyond 20%. The average cost of a dropped catch was ~33 runs. How many catch attempts would a single slip fielder receive per match?

Interesting.

2 catches?

 

[capt_Luffy]

For some follow up here - Davis did a study studying field positions and dropped catches at each one, in the period 2000-2015.

29% of chances were missed at slip. One player only missed 14% of their chances (I’d love someone to guess this), and every other player was beyond 20%. The average cost of a dropped catch was ~33 runs. How many catch attempts would a single slip fielder receive per match?

So like over a 5-match Series, 10 catches. An average one will take 7 of those while an elite will 9. And on average that costs a team around ~70 runs. An elite no 8 who scores 30 RPI and an average does, let's say 16. That's an advantage of around ~140 runs. That's almost twice as valuable, on the mean.

 

[capt_Luffy]

That's a bogus comparison because Punter/Waugh are elite slips and Warne is a normal no.8. if you have an elite no.8 like Pollock or Vettori, then he matters more.

Now, if I point to that Hammond/Simpson/Hooper to Border/Root/Viv comparison I am being a whiny bitch and bringing topics already debunked....... He lack of self-awareness is something else.

 

[subshakerz]

So like over a 5-match Series, 10 catches. An average one will take 7 of those while an elite will 9. And on average that costs a team around ~70 runs. An elite no 8 who scores 30 RPI and an average does, let's say 16. That's an advantage of around ~140 runs. That's almost twice as valuable, on the mean.

Yes anyways we look it, the no.8 runs have more effect.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yes anyways we look it, the no.8 runs have more effect.

Another thing to add, is the partnership they form with set batsmen. Sometimes the value of a good tailender isn't really the runs they score, but allow to be scored around them.

 

[subshakerz]

Another thing to add, is the partnership they form with set batsmen. Sometimes the value of a good tailender isn't really the runs they score, but allow to be scored around them.

I gave him a bunch of examples of that from his precious 2000 Aus side and of course he brushes over it.

 

[Johan]

As an overall package I don't see where Imran's ahead. And before someone chimes in, not talking about "down grading one", it's that Hammond is too low.

In primary they're just about equal, 8th for a bowler and 11th for a batsman is a wash. Even anecdotally, it really close.

Hammond's GOAT slip status is at the very least equal to Imran's batting, the more than useful bowling is just the cherry in top.

I don't think Hammond the slip is close to Imran the bat in term of match impact but with considering his decent pace bowling and leg spin, all combined into one, maybe during IK's all rounder days.