Greatest West Indian Batsman

[SJS]

It is interesting to see how many cricketers who played against him, including those who saw him late in his career, rate Sobers the greatest batsman they ever saw. All these have great regard for Richards, Lara, Tendulkar etc but Sobers seems to stand appart.

I was readin Mallett's book on Chappelll (composed of interviews with the elder Chappell) which was published about five years ago. Ian is absolutely categorical that Sobers was the greatest batsman he played with or against. He ranks Pollock second. The same is the case with bowlers who bowled at him

I remember asking the late Ramesh 'Buck' Divecha how he rated him. Divecha had seen Bradman (and his team) in 1948 when he was playing for Cambridge University and had bowled to the likes of Hutton, May and Cowdrey and the three W's(he had taken 4 for 46 in 29 overs- including Weekes and Goddard- for the University against the visiting West Indians in 1950 . He was absolutely certain that other than Bradman he would not rate him lower than any cricketer he saw or played with or against. That covered the period from late 1940's to the first half of the current decade. I was a bit surprised since I thought being an old timer and someone who had played most of his cricket in England he would have said Hutton or even Hammond whom he must have seen play in England.

 

[bagapath]

sounds like this gentleman has had a great life. wow. cant even imagine studying in cambridge in the 1940s and representing their cricket team on top of that!

 

[The Sean]

It is interesting to see how many cricketers who played against him, including those who saw him late in his career, rate Sobers the greatest batsman they ever saw. All these have great regard for Richards, Lara, Tendulkar etc but Sobers seems to stand appart.

I was readin Mallett's book on Chappelll (composed of interviews with the elder Chappell) which was published about five years ago. Ian is absolutely categorical that Sobers was the greatest batsman he played with or against. He ranks Pollock second. The same is the case with bowlers who bowled at him.

Absolutely, I've encountered the same thing with virtually every account I've read. Doug Walters is another who - despite only encountering Sobers at the end of his career - had no hesitation in rating him the greatest batsman he ever saw, and this from someone who played with and against the Chappells, Pollock and both Richards' all at their peak.

 

[The Sean]

Weekes easierly for mine

You think Weekes is easily the best of those not mentioned in the poll, or easily the best of all of them?

 

[Trumpers_Ghost]

There should definetly be more options. Walcott, Weekes and Kanhai deserve atleast the respect of being voted on.

 

[The Sean]

There should definetly be more options. Walcott, Weekes and Kanhai deserve atleast the respect of being voted on.

The next rain that falls on you will be the tears of Sir Frank.

 

[chaminda_00]

You think Weekes is easily the best of those not mentioned in the poll, or easily the best of all of them?

Best of them all.

 

[SJS]

There should definetly be more options. Walcott, Weekes and Kanhai deserve atleast the respect of being voted on.

I was quite scandalised to see Worrell's name missing from that Poll. I do hope it was nothing more serious than an inadvertant slip.

 

[MrIncredible]

Havent read much on Worrell tbh but I know enough of Weekes and Walcott to know that while they were great batsmen, they were notorious (IMO) home track/minnow bullies. Not their fault, u can only play whats infront of u. But when ur stats vs India/nzl pale in comparison vs Eng/Aust. Could have included Kanhai. Now he was solid at home and away vs all-comers (averaging 40+ home/away vs all comers).

Viv> Sobers cause Viv doesnt seem to have an achillees heel like Sobers (vs NZL). I'll go into further detail as to y i rate Viv above Sobers (and in the top 5 of all time) after a few comments from my fellow posters

 

[SJS]

Achilles’ heel :

A fatal weakness in spite of overall strength, actually or potentially leading to downfall. While the mythological origin refers to a physical vulnerability, metaphorical references to other attributes or qualities that can lead to their downfall​

I don't know about Sobers' achilles' heel for it neither killed him nor led to his downfall.

By similar logic, Richards seemed to have some kind of "Baldr's mistletoe" in Barbados

 

[chaminda_00]

Havent read much on Worrell tbh but I know enough of Weekes and Walcott to know that while they were great batsmen, they were notorious (IMO) home track/minnow bullies. Not their fault, u can only play whats infront of u. But when ur stats vs India/nzl pale in comparison vs Eng/Aust. Could have included Kanhai. Now he was solid at home and away vs all-comers (averaging 40+ home/away vs all comers).

Sobers' record is also inflated to an extent by runs against minnows and an inflated home record. All three batsmen average 60 odd at home and under 40 away from home (excluding matches in India and Pakistan).

Though to be fair to all three and Headley for that matter, they rarely played away from home due to South Africa not wanting to play them and the limited matches others played outside Australia and England.

 

[SJS]

Sobers' record is also inflated to an extent by runs against minnows and an inflated home record. All three batsmen average 60 odd at home and under 40 away from home (excluding matches in India and Pakistan).

Though to be fair to all three and Headley for that matter, they rarely played away from home due to South Africa not wanting to play them and the limited matches others played outside Australia and England.

The biggest minnows (what a horrid expression) of the time were New Zealand. From the time they started playing Test cricket in 1929-30 till 1968-69 (Sobers' third and last series against them) they played 28 Test series and won the grand total of ZILCH.

In three series and 12 Tests spread over 16 years Sobers managed a meager 404 runs at 23.8.

Yes against India and Pakistan, who from the time they started playing Test cricket till Sobers career ended, had won 13 series between them.

India's eight wins included 3 against England, 1 against West Indies and 3 against NZland.

Pakistan's start to Test cricket was probably the finest of anyside after the original twoi n the history of the game. After losing their first tentative series to India, they drew against England (the very first time they met them), drew again against India, then beat New Zealand 2-0 (NZL had been playing Test cricket already for a quarter of a century), then
Pakistan beat Australia in their inaugural Test against them, then after losing their first ever series in West Indies beat them in the return series.

That made it three wins and two draws in their first seven series. NO TEAM, in the history of the game has a better record.

If we want to term these India and Pakistan sides of the late fifties to mid seventies as minnows then yes he averaged in the eighties against them. But then we are going to eliminate three of the five teams who he played against and leave us with just England and Australia.

The man played 55 Tests against these two countries and scored a meager 4724 runs, with 14 centuries at a miserable average of 53.7 !!

 

[chaminda_00]

Wasn't being critical of Sobers but if you look purely at stats, all three have similar trends. Sobers' record against NZ is something no has ever been able to explain. But even though as a team NZ may have been worse. The pitches in NZ were generally more bowler friendly then pitches in India and Pakistan.

FWIW Walcott has better record against both Australia and England, average wise. Weekes is worse then both. But at the end of day there are other factors then who scored the most runs against the so called top sides or the so called lesser sides.

 

[bagapath]

we are in the genius zone, lets acknowdge that first.

if a cricket team can have more than 11 members then headley, sobers, richards, lara, walcott, worrell and weekes would all be part of the middle order (i am considering sobers purely as a batsman here). they all were cracking batters who could turn the match 180 degrees around in their favor in a single session. all were technical maestros and excellent stroke players with sharp cricketing minds, great appetite for runs and amazing ability to snatch victories from losing positions. they were also team players of the highest caliber. all seven would make it to top 50 batsmen of all time; probably top 30, even. some achieved test victories more often than the others because of the rest of team. but man to man, they all were champions, no question about that.

so any statistical exercise to split them is not going to prove conclusive. instead, their styles and long term impact on the game would decide the winner. in that sense i am happy to see richards and sobers running neck to neck for the top spot in the race as of now. but it does not mean others were crap.

 

[MrIncredible]

Sobers' record is also inflated to an extent by runs against minnows and an inflated home record. All three batsmen average 60 odd at home and under 40 away from home (excluding matches in India and Pakistan).

Though to be fair to all three and Headley for that matter, they rarely played away from home due to South Africa not wanting to play them and the limited matches others played outside Australia and England.

Pakistan and India around the time of Sobers were ne thing but minnows and Sobers also had a very good/great batting record vs the other 2 teams (England/Aust.). For whatever reason he failed miserably vs NZl hence y i called it his achillees heel.

 

[Ikki]

Pakistan and India around the time of Sobers were ne thing but minnows and Sobers also had a very good/great batting record vs the other 2 teams (England/Aust.). For whatever reason he failed miserably vs NZl hence y i called it his achillees heel.

The difference between Pakistan and NZ of Sobers time is practically none. India was only slightly better than them. 3 of the 5 teams Sobers faced were pretty weak TBH. I did a statistical comparison before on a Sobers thread and those 3 were pretty much like the Zimbabwe of the 90s, and being generous only a little bit better. There is definitely some sort of inflation. The fact that he failed against NZ is a pretty weird blot on his otherwise fantastic record.

 

[SJS]

Wasn't being critical of Sobers but if you look purely at stats, all three have similar trends. Sobers' record against NZ is something no has ever been able to explain. But even though as a team NZ may have been worse. The pitches in NZ were generally more bowler friendly then pitches in India and Pakistan.

FWIW Walcott has better record against both Australia and England, average wise. Weekes is worse then both. But at the end of day there are other factors then who scored the most runs against the so called top sides or the so called lesser sides.

It doesn't need any explanations. It is just one of those things. It happens. It is a statistical oddity.

Thats why I mentioned Vivian Richards in Barbados. Richards played 13 first class matches (23 innings) in his career against Barbados and averaged 27.3. One needn't try and understand why this happened to Richard. There is no reason whatsoever. It can happen to anyone, howsoever great.

I did not know Richard had such a record in Barbados but I knew there will be something like that. There is every chance of that being so with almost anyone who has played for a long time.

It does not fly in the face of logic. It tells you that there is no logic in such things. You need eight good balls to get out for low scores in eight innings and they can all be at a stretch too.

Barrington once got into a patch and was hardly able to stay at the wicket for any amount of time. Someone asked him if he was badly out of form. He said, "I dont know. I am getting out almost as soon as I go in. I have to play long enough to know if I am out of form."

You have to try and understand what that means.

Richard's record in the List A matches against some English sides is strange.

Hampshire - he played 18 games against them and averaged 23.29.

In 17 games against Middlesex he averaged 22.5.

In 17 games against Worcestershire he averaged 19.26 !

14 games against Yorkshire and an average of 23.84.

Strange for the guy who was in my humble opinion the greatest one day batsman of all time, Tendulkar included.

He averaged, in ODI's

• 50.9 against Australia
• 57.8 against England
• 54.1 against New Zealand
• 55.5 against Sri lanka
• 47.8 against India

There is no explanation for those figures against those county sides where in 56 games he had no centuries and just 7 fifties.

 

[Athlai]

Well pardon my french but maybe King Viv just didn't give a **** about his county team.

 

[SJS]

I could respond by saying that Sobers did not give a **** about New Zealand but that would be a 'smart-Alec' answer besides being patently dishonest.

 

[Athlai]

I could respond by saying that Sobers did not give a **** about New Zealand but that would be a 'smart-Alec' answer besides being patently dishonest.

It just seems as though Viv had no problem playing against England for the West Indies that it certainly wasn't any particular problem he had with the conditions. Wouldn't be the first player to go on auto-pilot while playing for a county team. While Sobers just seemed to never do well against NZ at all.