Gibbs and Boje pull out of Indian tour

[C_C]

Steady on mate. Extradition only occurs with very serious matters. There also has to be an extradition treaty or something between countries. Whether one exists between SA and India I'm not sure, but extradition's too harsh. Murder, rape or something serious like that. Ok. If it was a punch on or something, then of course not. Match fixing falls somewhere between these two. I think it's much closer to the latter. Making extradition a ridiculous option.

They may well have something to hide. Shame the ICC isn't dealing with it..

Err you can be extradited for simply punching a guy on the other side of the planet during yer one week vacation - provided that he deciedes to press charges and extradition treaty exists.
Ofcourse, extradition treaty should exist between ALL nations and if it doesnt between RSA and IND, then the loser is cricket and the law, not Boje and Gibbs being the winner.

 

[C_C]

Also, not every Indian police officer is corrupt. Every police force has corruption in it, everywhere in the world. There are degrees of corruption though. Some more then others.

The difference between the best police force and the worst police force is the level at which the corruption exists and in this subject, it is the lower levels. Ie, ALL police forces are corrupt at the highest of the levels - if you believe that the police in Australia would nab Rupert Murdoch for some serious crime without trying to cover it up, think again.
In the 'least corrupt' police force, the highest of the officials are corrupt but you dont see the low level grunts collecting personal toll on traffic or bribes. In the 'most corrupt' police force, the top level is corrupt while the grunts are happily fattening their purses.
Since this sort of case doesnt go through the low level but is dealt at the highest level, corruption isnt a factor- everybody at the highest level is corrupt!

Note, that I would not like any police force investigating these sorts of things.

Diagree. To my knowledge, in almost every single nation, cases dealing with the criminal code falls primarily in the jurisdiction of the police, not some government/quasi-government body like the cricket boards ( much less an independent body like the ICC). Since matchfixing is a criminal offence, the ICC or the respective boards take a backseat if one wishes to uphold the procedure dictated by the constitution of the respective nations.

 

[Shounak]

Err you can be extradited for simply punching a guy on the other side of the planet during yer one week vacation - provided that he deciedes to press charges and extradition treaty exists..

Are you sure about that? I'm sure Australia and the USA have pretty close ties WRT the law. If I punched a guy in the USA and he pressed charges a week later. By which time I'm back in Melbourne. I doubt the Aust Government or even the US would bother extraditing me.

Do they even have the right to?

I'm not sure about the laws but I'd imagine there would be some sort of limit..

 

[Shounak]

Since this sort of case doesnt go through the low level but is dealt at the highest level, corruption isnt a factor- everybody at the highest level is corrupt!

Yep. That's most likely true.

That's the reason I don't want police looking into it.

Diagree. To my knowledge, in almost every single nation, cases dealing with the criminal code falls primarily in the jurisdiction of the police, not some government/quasi-government body like the cricket boards ( much less an independent body like the ICC). Since matchfixing is a criminal offence, the ICC or the respective boards take a backseat if one wishes to uphold the procedure dictated by the constitution of the respective nations.

I'm looking at this from a different angle. In a lot of Australian workplaces (more so in yesteryear), everything's dealt with inhouse. If there is a fight, people will rarely press criminal charges. The matter will be dealt with by (sometimes senior) management who do all the punishing on their own. In the form of suspensions or termination or whatever. Of course in extreme cases or in a case where one party insists, the police are involved.

But the police are usually given details of what happened.

I think that the fairest outcome would be if the ICC launched an investigation similar to what we in Australia call a "royal commission". But the investigators should be completely independant. The findings should be handed over to the authorities, depending on the severity of their trespasses.

Furthermore, it wouldn't be easy for the Indian police to investigate matters in foreign countries. This match fixing racket may extend to numerous other countries. An ICC investigation unit might have more flexibility there also.

 

[C_C]

Are you sure about that? I'm sure Australia and the USA have pretty close ties WRT the law. If I punched a guy in the USA and he pressed charges a week later. By which time I'm back in Melbourne. I doubt the Aust Government or even the US would bother extraditing me.

Do they even have the right to?

I'm not sure about the laws but I'd imagine there would be some sort of limit..

Well i dont know how it is gonna pan out in reality. Technically, extradition treaties vary in its degree and i tihnk the one between OZ-US or US-Canada is worded such that you can be summoned to stand trial for ANY criminal offence by the foreign nation. Ofcourse, in reality, it depends a lot on who you deciede to punch - a homeless squatter and you might get away with it. But i doubt you would get away if you deciede to so much as pinch the Commissioner's wife on her bottom ( and she takes offence) 15 minutes before boarding yer plane outta LA.

 

[C_C]

Furthermore, it wouldn't be easy for the Indian police to investigate matters in foreign countries. This match fixing racket may extend to numerous other countries. An ICC investigation unit might have more flexibility there also.

I honestly dont see how . I am very much positive that matchfixing is far more widespread than believed but the police forces of various nations have access to INTERPOL and various extradition treaties which are extremely hard to circumvent - ICC will rely on arbitary negotiating and deals with various government which i think is clearly a much less direct and murky route.

 

[Shounak]

I honestly dont see how . I am very much positive that matchfixing is far more widespread than believed but the police forces of various nations have access to INTERPOL and various extradition treaties which are extremely hard to circumvent - ICC will rely on arbitary negotiating and deals with various government which i think is clearly a much less direct and murky route.

I doubt the Indian police would bother to try to cull matchfixing all around the world. I don't think they'd go through Interpol. They are only interested in what's happening in their backyard, not concerned for the game of cricket itself.

The ICC on the other hand are.

 

[C_C]

I doubt the Indian police would bother to try to cull matchfixing all around the world. I don't think they'd go through Interpol. They are only interested in what's happening in their backyard, not concerned for the game of cricket itself.

The ICC on the other hand are.

Agreed- Indian Police isnt concerned with what is going on outside of India......however, it will be much more effective than the ICC to dent the threat of matchfixing- in India or globally since it has the proper mechanisms and channels to go through. I dont see how ICC can do anything apart from prosecute just players ( who are just one aspect of matchfixing) in cricketing terms - it is a private organisation with no legal authority whatsoever.

 

[Shounak]

Agreed- Indian Police isnt concerned with what is going on outside of India......however, it will be much more effective than the ICC to dent the threat of matchfixing- in India or globally since it has the proper mechanisms and channels to go through. I dont see how ICC can do anything apart from prosecute just players ( who are just one aspect of matchfixing) in cricketing terms - it is a private organisation with no legal authority whatsoever.

ICC should investigate and hand their findings over to the authorities of that country. They find a racket in Australia, give it the Australian Federal Police. Who deal with it accordingly

That's the only feasible way I can think of to deal with matchfixing globally. The anti-corruption unit should really step into gear.

 

[C_C]

They find a racket in Australia, give it the Australian Federal Police.

How are they gonna find a racket in Australia or anywhere for that matter ?
The most ICC can do, is ask a player or umpire to explain themselves and judge if the explanations are satisfactory ( ofcourse, the players arnt compelled to- they can just choose to retire and ICC loses any jurisdiction over them). They dont have the authority to interrogate, monitor or investigate anyone but the players and that too, is shaky- they will be extremely hardpressed just to force a player to reveal all his accounts information.They can ask a player how he got the money but they have absolutely no basis to approach the guy who bribed the player or so much as even monitor them to build a case- and a police body will not simply start monitoring me just coz an independent private organisation asked them to. As such, an ICC led enquiry is largely redundant.
The only way the matchfixing saga can be dealt with is if one of the nations directs its police force to investigate matchfixing in its own backyard in great detail, which would inevitably reveal links to people in other nations and that information can be passed on to the respective police authorities of those nations.

 

[Shounak]

I see your point.

An international police taskforce, even possibly an Interpol would be perfect.

I doubt anyone would bother though. It's just a game. They've got real criminals to deal with..

 

[C_C]

I see your point.

An international police taskforce, even possibly an Interpol would be perfect.

I doubt anyone would bother though. It's just a game. They've got real criminals to deal with..

Sadly enough, i agree with this....an international police taskforce would be best suited but police usually have much bigger fishes to fry....

 

[Sanz]

I was quite enjoying this discussion and playing devil's advocate until you made a personal remark. (i.e. do you even have the commonsense ect.) A pity there are people in this forum who can't have a debate without becoming derrogatory toward the opponent. I don't continue a debate when it degenerates into that so, Sanz, I graciously leave the floor to you.

I apologize for the remark. I have edited the irrelvant part from my post. I hope you can continue posting in this thread. Once again I am sorry mate.

 

[jot1]

I apologize for the remark. I have edited the irrelvant part from my post. I hope you can continue posting in this thread. Once again I am sorry mate.

Apology accepted without reservations. It's matess, by the way. (Or the equivelant female version, whatever that is?)

 

[Langeveldt]

Apology accepted without reservations. It's matess, by the way. (Or the equivelant female version, whatever that is?)

meisie?

 

[jot1]

meisie?

Mmmm....can you imagine the Aussies saying that in the same way they say mate.

For the record. The Delhi police sent Gibbs and Boje each a questionaire about the matter through the UCB, in which they answered every question asked. They do not see what any further interrogation will acheive as all the questions have already been answered.

 

[Sanz]

For the record. The Delhi police sent Gibbs and Boje each a questionaire about the matter through the UCB, in which they answered every question asked. They do not see what any further interrogation will acheive as all the questions have already been answered.

And that proves that Boje is not guilty, doesn't it ?

Beside what makes you think that Boje was truthful in his answers ? It has been widely reported that Boje didn't answer those questions under oath.

 

[jot1]

Just an interesting footnote here. The cop who originally came across the Cronje match-fixing saga and investigated it, is himself now being investigated for corruption and bribery. Seems Indian authorities are suspicious as he is living far above his means as a cop should be able to. Takes one to know one, maybe?

 

[honestbharani]

"being investigated" is the key word. Anyway, why should that guy's mistakes or crimes make what Gibbs did (and Boje is suspected of doing) any less?

 

[Richard]

for one thing, gibbs has already admitted to taking money for this innings
and if you thought virendar sehwag's 309 was littered with dropped catches and plenty of luck, then you most certainly would be in for a surprise when you watched this inning, where it appeared as though he was trying to get out every ball.

Maybe it appeared that way because it was that way?