Gibbs and Boje pull out of Indian tour

[Shounak]

Get some perspective mate. Which part of this entire episode do you find riddled with corruption? Please put that tar brush away.

Where corruption comes into this is that I would not trust the Indian police with two of my players. The chance of renegade officers with their own agenda would be much greater with the Indian police, then with others.

That's why I've been saying I'd much prefer the ICC dealt with this directly. It's a shame they're taking the stance they are..

 

[honestbharani]

Where corruption comes into this is that I would not trust the Indian police with two of my players. The chance of renegade officers with their own agenda would be much greater with the Indian police, then with others.

That's why I've been saying I'd much prefer the ICC dealt with this directly. It's a shame they're taking the stance they are..

Why do u think a couple of police officers would have their own agenda against international cricketers from some other country? Anyways, the point is that the Delhi police have established their bona fide with regards to this enquiry by proving that Cronje was the big fish in match fixing. Gibbs and Boje are the ones who have to prove their side of things as things stand. The Delhi police have already proved their competency and their reliability.

 

[Deja moo]

Get this. The police expose the captain of their own national cricket team, alongwith an invaluable member of the One day team as match-fixers, and theyre supposed to be corrupt ?!? Corruption would be looking the other way and not doing anything. Shounak, dont you think it would have been far easier for them to accept money from the bookmakers to not bust their cosy arrangement with the players ? Damned if they do, damned if they dont.

 

[Slow Love™]

The point is that Gibbs was found guilty of a match-fixing offence in his own country, and justice was denied the Indian police, whether they have a history of corruption or not.

I can completely understand why he and Boje don't want to travel to India, and perhaps South Africa should just resolve not to ever select them for tours to that country. But demanding assurances from the Indian police that they won't be prosecuted really does seem as silly as it sounds.

 

[Anil]

I'm not the only person saying this, it's a fact. You never know what will happen with Indian police.

there is a hell of a lot of corruption in the indian police force, it is a fact, so what? how does it affect this issue? how has it affected this issue? "You never know what will happen with Indian police." is the kind of ridiculous, conveniently vague statement which does not convey anything in itself....do you think every single police officer in india is corrupt? if yes, state the facts that support your statement, not vague generalizations. what evidence do you have that the officers that discovered a crime, the perpretators and the modus operandi are corrupt? they just did their job, in case you don't know that's what police all over the world do.....

 

[Anil]

Where corruption comes into this is that I would not trust the Indian police with two of my players. The chance of renegade officers with their own agenda would be much greater with the Indian police, then with others.

you have been seeing india from the perspective of a typical bollywood masala movie, talk about ridiculous theories and assertions.... the very publicity that this embroglio has received/will receive in india will ensure that there is no corruption in the process...

 

[jot1]

If it is just a question of getting information about the bookies involved, why don't the Delhi police send a couple of men to S A where they can question the two, with their lawyers present, and then let everyone get on with their lives? Gibbs was found guilty and served his sentence. Boje was found not guilty. Why do some of you presume Boje is guilty just because he won't go to India? I repeat, he has already been found not guilty. All the transcripts of the inquiries and their foundings were sent to the Delhi police.

 

[C_C]

Can anyone here provide the name of a single non corrupt police force ?

Gibbs and Boje should be extradited to India for questioning.

 

[Deja moo]

If it is just a question of getting information about the bookies involved, why don't the Delhi police send a couple of men to S A where they can question the two, with their lawyers present, and then let everyone get on with their lives?

Conversely, why doesnt Gibbs get his lawyer to accompany him to India, get questioned and let everyone else get on with their lives ?

Gibbs was found guilty and served his sentence. Boje was found not guilty. Why do some of you presume Boje is guilty just because he won't go to India? I repeat, he has already been found not guilty. All the transcripts of the inquiries and their foundings were sent to the Delhi police.

And why assume that the King enquiry would have gone to the depth it should have ? They could only work with whatever information was available to them. Why not let the guys who have all the evidence do the dirty work ?

 

[C_C]

And i dunno how many people are/arnt aware of the real world, but evading the authorities is almost certain to be seen as guilty in a jury verdict unless the person is squeaky clean.
Its very rare that people evading the authorities while accused of a crime are aquitted when caught and presented to a jury-based trial. Just based on that precedent and probability, i am inclined to believe that Boje is guilty.

 

[jot1]

And i dunno how many people are/arnt aware of the real world, but evading the authorities is almost certain to be seen as guilty in a jury verdict unless the person is squeaky clean.
Its very rare that people evading the authorities while accused of a crime are aquitted when caught and presented to a jury-based trial. Just based on that precedent and probability, i am inclined to believe that Boje is guilty.

As far as Gibbs and Boje are concerned, they have been through it all. It was traumatic, unpleasant, humiliating. They have been ostracised, ridiculed and condemmed. One was found guilty and served his sentence. One was found not guilty. Why should they put them selves through all that again? No normal person would. Especially not pay to do it. Which they would have to do if they took thier lawyers with them.
And why assume the King commission did NOT go to the depth they should have. Did not the Delhi police supply the King commission with the information they had? I seem to remember that was mentioned during the enquiry.
Realism says to me no one, not even cricketweb members, would put themselves through an unpleasant experience like that, twice, if they could avoid it. Never mind shell out money to do it!

 

[Sanz]

As far as Gibbs and Boje are concerned, they have been through it all. It was traumatic, unpleasant, humiliating. They have been ostracised, ridiculed and condemmed. One was found guilty and served his sentence.

And you want us to have sympathy for them ? Sorry, I dont have any sympathy for cheats and frauds.

One was found not guilty. Why should they put them selves through all that again? No normal person would. Especially not pay to do it. Which they would have to do if they took thier lawyers with them.
And why assume the King commission did NOT go to the depth they should have. Did not the Delhi police supply the King commission with the information they had? I seem to remember that was mentioned during the enquiry.

Wasn't the King commission enquired abrupted because of legal threats. In the second phase they were planning to use polygraph tests on many players including Boje (he was very reluctant to take it). Anyways because of the fear of legal threats by Cronje's lawyers, this phase never took place. Cronje suceeded in saving his friends.

Realism says to me no one, not even cricketweb members, would put themselves through an unpleasant experience like that, twice, if they could avoid it. Never mind shell out money to do it!

Well they should have thought about this before commiting the crime.

 

[Sanz]

Boje was found not guilty.

If he is not guilty then what is he afraid of ?

 

[jot1]

And you want us to have sympathy for them ? Sorry, I dont have any sympathy for cheats and frauds.

Oi! Where did I try and generate sympathy for them? I still mantain anybody, people in this forum included, who get themselves into a like position, (not necessarily the exact same,) will not deliberately go through the process again if they could possibly avoid it, especially if they are not sure of the outcome. Only a fool would. How do you know Boje is afraid? He might just want to avoid the unpleasantness of going through an interrogation again and get on with his life.
The word "them" is being used all the time, meaning Gibbs AND Boje. Only Gibbs was found guilty. We didn't hear all the evidence, didn't see all the transcripts, didn't have access to any tapes, documentation, etc. Yet Boje has been judged guilty by some forum members. Very unfair IMHO.

 

[Jono]

The point is that Gibbs was found guilty of a match-fixing offence in his own country, and justice was denied the Indian police, whether they have a history of corruption or not.

I can completely understand why he and Boje don't want to travel to India, and perhaps South Africa should just resolve not to ever select them for tours to that country. But demanding assurances from the Indian police that they won't be prosecuted really does seem as silly as it sounds.

Yeah that's what is so absurd to me. Fine, you don't want to tour then don't tour. But don't ask for assurances that the Indian police won't question you and/or you won't be prosecuted. Utterly ridiculous.

 

[Sanz]

Oi! Where did I try and generate sympathy for them? I still mantain anybody, people in this forum included, who get themselves into a like position, (not necessarily the exact same,) will not deliberately go through the process again if they could possibly avoid it, especially if they are not sure of the outcome. Only a fool would. How do you know Boje is afraid? He might just want to avoid the unpleasantness of going through an interrogation again and get on with his life.
The word "them" is being used all the time, meaning Gibbs AND Boje. Only Gibbs was found guilty. We didn't hear all the evidence, didn't see all the transcripts, didn't have access to any tapes, documentation, etc. Yet Boje has been judged guilty by some forum members. Very unfair IMHO.

Let's see, You go to a country with your friends Y & Z and commit fraud with your friends, But successfully leave that country before the police find out about the fraud and lay their hands. Police file charges against you and your friends Y & Z. Police want to interrogate you but you refuse to co-operate with them and seek an assurance from them before going to that country again.

Not to forget that you are reluctant to take the polygraph test (which was never taken anyway), you didn't respond to the questionaire(submitted by Indian police to SA Board) under oath either.
Why should I believe that you are not guilty, considering that your buddies Y & Z are guilty big time.

As for how do I know Nicky is afraid ? Duh, If he is not guilty why does he want 'unconditional exemption in writting' from Delhi Police. He has no problem with the interrogation if they assure him that he wont be arrested. And If he is not guilty(which he is so sure of), why would Delhi Police arrest him. In other words, Boje will be arrested only if he is found guilty. Is it too hard to understand ?

 

[jot1]

I was quite enjoying this discussion and playing devil's advocate until you made a personal remark. (i.e. do you even have the commonsense ect.) A pity there are people in this forum who can't have a debate without becoming derrogatory toward the opponent. I don't continue a debate when it degenerates into that so, Sanz, I graciously leave the floor to you.

 

[C_C]

As far as Gibbs and Boje are concerned, they have been through it all. It was traumatic, unpleasant, humiliating. They have been ostracised, ridiculed and condemmed. One was found guilty and served his sentence. One was found not guilty. Why should they put them selves through all that again? No normal person would. Especially not pay to do it. Which they would have to do if they took thier lawyers with them.
And why assume the King commission did NOT go to the depth they should have. Did not the Delhi police supply the King commission with the information they had? I seem to remember that was mentioned during the enquiry.
Realism says to me no one, not even cricketweb members, would put themselves through an unpleasant experience like that, twice, if they could avoid it. Never mind shell out money to do it!

Whether Gibbs served a sentence is irrelevant - note that it didnt go through proper legal channels and is akin to a mafia boss getting a special senetorial commission letting him serve just 3 months in jail.
As per Boje, his refusal to answer questions is seen as taking flight - he has NOT been cleared and if you check legal precedent, in a jury-based trial you are gonna have an extremely tough time getting off scot free if you take flight.
And no, Delhi Police didnt supply the King commission with all the relevant facts to my knowledge- they are under no obligation as King commission wasnt a proper legal channel.
Besides, the central reason for questioning Boje and Gibbs is to try and uncover the entirity of the matchfixing underworld and their refusal to answer questions can easily be seen as obstruction of justice - that is a punishable act in itself,regardless of how many years you have served previously.
And i am not saying that Boje and Gibbs must voluntarily answer the questions - it is a free world and one isnt compelled to do anything voluntarily(makes the whole thing redundant). Just that they should be extradited for questioning. Not to mention, the fact that they are evading the questioning shows that they have something to hide and have tilted the opinion against them- you wont find many court cases where the defendant has been exonerated after taking flight from/evading the authorities.

 

[Shounak]

Just that they should be extradited for questioning. Not to mention, the fact that they are evading the questioning shows that they have something to hide and have tilted the opinion against them

Steady on mate. Extradition only occurs with very serious matters. There also has to be an extradition treaty or something between countries. Whether one exists between SA and India I'm not sure, but extradition's too harsh. Murder, rape or something serious like that. Ok. If it was a punch on or something, then of course not. Match fixing falls somewhere between these two. I think it's much closer to the latter. Making extradition a ridiculous option.

They may well have something to hide. Shame the ICC isn't dealing with it..

 

[Shounak]

To all the other posts.

I'd much prefer the ICC launched an investigation to the Indian police. The Indian police have investigated players before but I think that the ICC would follow due processes and as a last resort should involve the Indian police.

Corruption may or may not affect the investigation, but there's a higher chance of corruption affecting an investigation with the Indian police then with the ICC. Provided the ICC's investigation was completely independant. In addition to this, it is clear that Gibbs and Boje will not co-operate with the Indian police. I doubt they'd have the same reservations with the ICC.

Also, not every Indian police officer is corrupt. Every police force has corruption in it, everywhere in the world. There are degrees of corruption though. Some more then others.

Note, that I would not like any police force investigating these sorts of things. The ICC should deal with it directly and perhaps hand their findings over to the police, once everything's all settled. The police can treat the situation accordingly. But the fact that this spans into different countries makes this issue very hard..