Ganguly: once a hero, now an embarrassment ...

[Dasa]

See, on its own I do think that Ganguly is pretty much done and dusted. He may produce a few good knocks, but I it'll be like morse code. Dot Dot Dot Dot Dot Dot Dash.. So I understand all that..

Fleming and Vaughan are two examples of fairly laid back captain who are excellent at what they do. I would rate Fleming higher then Vaughan but thats OT.

I don't think Dravid could handle captaining India. A few matches, of course he could but not for good. I think Dravid could get away with captaining a team like Australia but not India.

Hypothetically, if Dravid did captain India in 2001, he would have done nothing against SR Waugh and I'd imagine that Australia would have prevailed. I just can't picture Dravid taking on the opposition, like is necesary for an Indian captain.

I just think that India need a strong back bone in the team to support them. Australia don't need it as much, because they not only are a team of champions, but aggressive ones who always hold their ground. Even a player like Michael Clarke. Got into bit of a bout with Flintoff, hardly an event though.

I seriously can't see any other alternatives. That's why I'd prefer keeping Ganguly as a specialist captain.

I see your point, but I reckon whatever he may offer in terms of captaincy is outweighed by his non-performance as a batsman. India cannot afford to have a walking wicket IMO. I think you may be overestimating the importance of 'backbone' as well...even in 2001, it wasn't as if Ganguly's masterful captaincy was responsible for the series win - it was largely down to incredible personal achievements from Laxman, Dravid and Harbhajan.

 

[Shounak]

I see your point, but I reckon whatever he may offer in terms of captaincy is outweighed by his non-performance as a batsman. India cannot afford to have a walking wicket IMO. I think you may be overestimating the importance of 'backbone' as well...even in 2001, it wasn't as if Ganguly's masterful captaincy was responsible for the series win - it was largely down to incredible personal achievements from Laxman, Dravid and Harbhajan.

That is true. No team can afford a walking wicket.

But I don't think I'm overestimating the importance of a backbone, not WRT India anyway. I'm under the view that his hardnosed captaincy made everything else happen. That's not taking any credit away from Laxman, Dravid and Bhaji though..

The situation's a bit of a stalemate. I think that the Indian team would go down a lot if Dravid became captain. We'd also see his batting performance slip. So India would lose Ganguly as a batsman (might not be such a bad thing) but also the decline in Dravids performance.

There are stats on Dravid's knocks as a captain, which IIRC are hardly complimentary. It's a bit of a damned if you, damned if you don't sort of a situation.

India should support captaincy material type players. Maybe the captains of the first class teams or even U19's. Ie. Like Clarke doesn't have the highest average in FC cricket, but they see his potential to lead the team in the future..

But TBH, I can't really think of a viable solution for the Indian team at present..

 

[Slow Love™]

From reading the most recent article at cricinfo on this, it's obvious that Chappell didn't so much demand Ganguly step down so much as suggest the team might be stronger without him. But anybody who gives Chappell a free pass on this while excoriating Ganguly is being naive at best. How on earth would Chappell have expected Ganguly to react?

Mind you, Ganguly has been lurching from one embarrasment to another lately, and his cautious century against the worst team in the world doesn't say much of anything - I don't know if he'll see it as some kind of vindication of his form though.

I have to say that I would be cautious before praising Chappell over this incident. It's extremely poor man-management IMO, and shows a misunderstanding for how relationships with players (particularly a captain) should be conducted. It's fair enough that people want to say "well, good on him for not pandering to the politics of this situation", but I think that's something that has to be held in mind for this kind of role - it needs to be negotiated somehow. I'm not sure that Greg Chappell's people skills have brought him any great renown up to this point, and it's not the greatest start to get off to.

Which is not to excuse Ganguly's conduct in making all this so public. I guess we'll see what happens, but I don't think this situation was handled particularly well by the new coach. If he didn't think Sourav would interpret his comments as an absolute slap in the face, he was off with the fairies. As a result he now has a very public power-struggle on his hands that he couldn't have desired.

 

[honestbharani]

Actually I am sick of Ganguly bashing that has been going on in the media. Why dont people say a word to the selection committee or the BCCI ? It is BCCI's job to drop Ganguly. If the coach/media/ex-cricketers have problem with it, then they should have the guts to criticize/question the board. Asking ganguly to drop himself or calling him a national shame or attacking him personally is getting boring.

But they dont have that guts to criticize the board or question board's decision, do they ?

Ganguly has been the whipping boy of the media, here are a few of those that come to mind -

*when he came as a cricketer in 1992, media ran a story of him refusing to carry the drinks and because of this sick reporting Gangs lost 4 valuable years in his career.

* One Indian captain, when asked about Sourav's exclusion in 1995, quipped 'Sourav Who ?' Ironically this same Indian captain once asked for 'Noel David' as a replacement for Srinath/Prasad in Australia.

* When Sourav was finally selected to play for England Tour, Media/Fans ran stories on how he had come from a quota system.

* In the series against australia, Indian Media ran stories about his relationship with an small time Indian actress and how his marriage was in jeopardy and all that ********

* In the same series he was accused of cheating the toss, and anyone who knows about the rupee coins in India will tell you that there are so many of them and it is hard to define head/tail at times, but still the media didn't leave him alone

* Once again in the same series he was ridiculed by media many other things

* He was accused of robbing Tendulkar of Double century in Pakistan, when he wasn't even the captain in that test(Dravid was) and also the fact that Sachin was given lot of time to complete his 200, but he kept on batting slowly..

* Now he is accused of disrupting the harmony of this same team, which was built by him.

Well, I agree that people have unfairly criticized him at times, but I learned from what guys like Shastri and Gavaskar had to say that what Chappell said was not wrong at all. The article from Cricinfo (much like others) claims reliable sources within the side to be their source. Obviously, a lot of lies can be fabricated with those words at the start or at the end, but even from conjecture, I just get the feeling that Cricinfo have the gist of what happened. And for God's sake, this was not even a team selection meeting on the eve of the first Test. It was just a one to one discussion when Greg told Sourav that he does not really deserve a place in the side as a batsman. Sourav, I think, has blown this way out of proportion. Now, even if Greg was wrong (which I don't think he was), there was no need to publicize the issue no matter how much the media mobbed him. He has shown himself in very bad light as a leader in this series.

 

[Anil]

Hypothetically, if Dravid did captain India in 2001, he would have done nothing against SR Waugh and I'd imagine that Australia would have prevailed. I just can't picture Dravid taking on the opposition, like is necesary for an Indian captain.

ganguly taking on waugh's mental disintegration manfully was really admirable....but are you honestly suggesting that that's what won the series for india? are you seriously suggesting that laxman, dravid, tendulkar, harb had a huge series because of ganguly's in-your-face attitude? ganguly failed miserably as a batsman throughout that series and because a number of his mates performed extremely well, india came back from being completely outplayed for a test and a half and won the series, that too very narrowly...and it was not any kind of tactical brilliance either...gangs has never been tactically good....as a strategist, he has always been pretty average....

 

[Deja moo]

OMG .... this coterie of Sanz and Ganguly. :rolleyes:

 

[adharcric]

ganguly has simply lost his class ... he's trying to prolong his career by getting public sympathy now instead of responding professionally to this and focusing on his batting ... not to mention he considers that knock against zimbabwe to be his savior, if our captain has such standards then we're not in very good shape

as for dravid being the captain, his form might dip a little bit (not much though, remember he did well in SL) but at least that'll make space for a better batsman and fielder in the team

 

[Sanz]

OMG .... this coterie of Sanz and Ganguly. :rolleyes:

Moo, Yeah Let's start bashing Ganguly, that would make you happy and make a great debate.

The fact is that I am not the only one who thinks that Greg has been wrong in his timing and his approach. If at all Gangs did anything wrong was that he went to press, but I am glad he did. Otherwise we could never know Greg's man management skills.

But why am I telling you this, you have already made up your mind about Ganguly.

Ohh I better run and call ganguly that what a great job I have been doing as part of his coterie.

 

[Sanz]

Let's get one thing straight. Chappell and Ganguly both acted immaturely in this situation, Chappell for telling this to Ganguly amidst a test match and Ganguly for spilling it in public and distorting the focus of the team. Still, I think Chappell gave Ganguly an earnest suggestion (he didnt even tell him to step down, simply said what he should consider for the long-term good of the team and the short-term benefit of his personal batting) and Ganguly should've taken it like a professional and not an insecure coward. He knows he has to improve his batting to deserve his place in the team. If we want to play like Australia, we need to have professional policies like them and not bow down to ego-ridden individuals like Ganguly. Steve Waugh was also a pretty damn successful captain for Australia, but there wasn't such a commotion when his time was over.

Here's to hoping that Ganguly suddenly returns to form and ends this debate.

First of all, this team can never play like australia, Gangs or No-Gangs. 2nd, Gangs isn't coing to come back to form any time soon, so this debate will continue until he is dropped.

As for Chappel's honest opinion, That's a load of ********, Gangs asks him to chose from Yuvraj/Kaif and he says he will have both meaning drop the captain of the team. And If that is the way to improve this team then IMO there is no way for this team but down under Chappell.

Lastly, you started off well with trying to be fair , but with all the name calling in the middle displayed what you really thought of the situation and Ganguly.

 

[Sanz]

ganguly has simply lost his class ... he's trying to prolong his career by getting public sympathy now instead of responding professionally to this and focusing on his batting ... not to mention he considers that knock against zimbabwe to be his savior, if our captain has such standards then we're not in very good shape

And with all that name calling, you certainly have lot of class, dont you ? So far whatever you have posted has been all your assumption.

 

[shoot_me]

All I can say is either way, Team India is headed to hell.

 

[Sanz]

Hmm I don't know...I don't think Chappell did anything THAT bad in having a private conversation with Ganguly - Ganguly then decided to make that public, which IMO he shouldn't have done. Perhaps Chappell should've gone to the selectors first, but perhaps he just wanted to let Ganguly know of what he thought should be done?? The thing is, none of us know the relationship between Ganguly and Chappell and how it functions - it could be that Chappell felt he could tell Ganguly of his intentions because he thought Ganguly would be able to take it...

And you seriously believe that Yuvraj deserves to be in the test team ahead of Ganguly ? Common man you dont your captain to drop himself. This is the first time I have ever heard this. Imagine how many people will support Fletcher If he told the same thing to Vaughan before the start of an ODI series.

If Chappel felt that Ganguly's batting was not good, then he should work with him to improve it and not tell him to drop himself. It's not the coach's job to drop a player (let alone the captain).

 

[shoot_me]

First of all, this team can never play like australia, Gangs or No-Gangs. 2nd, Gangs isn't coing to come back to form any time soon, so this debate will continue until he is dropped.

As for Chappel's honest opinion, That's a load of ********, Gangs asks him to chose from Yuvraj/Kaif and he says he will have both meaning drop the captain of the team. And If that is the way to improve this team then IMO there is no way for this team but down under Chappell.

Lastly, you started off well with trying to be fair , but with all the name calling in the middle displayed what you really thought of the situation and Ganguly.

Sanz, you speak as if Chappell should be crucified for saying his honest opinion. Whether you agree with him or not is up to you, but I think we all need to calm down a little bit here.

 

[shoot_me]

And you seriously believe that Yuvraj deserves to be in the test team ahead of Ganguly ? Common man you dont your captain to drop himself. This is the first time I have ever heard this. Imagine how many people will support Fletcher If he told the same thing to Vaughan before the start of an ODI series.
If Chappel felt that Ganguly's batting was not good, then he should work with him to improve it and not tell him to drop himself. It's not the coach's job to drop a player (let alone the captain).

But there's a big difference between Ganguly and Vaughan, A BIG ONE.

 

[Sanz]

I agree with Dasa. Once the Indian players form started wavering, Ganguly has really been exposed as a toothless tiger. Hes captaincy has been far too dependant on a whole lot of Indian players being in good form for an extended period of time.

And then why was Indian team not doing better before Ganguly became captain with almost same team (albeit with a better tam under Azhar and Sachin) ?

Besides, I was always taught that washing the dirty linen in public is one of the most despicable acts one could perform. Chappell had absolutely every right in telling Ganguly that he didnt deserve his place in the team.

Yeah may be Ganguly was wrong by spitting it out in Public(IMO he wasn't but for many he was), but this whole thing was started by VVS Laxman the previous day (which you seem to have conveniently forgotten).

It seems many of the posters here would rather prefer sycophants who keep sucking up to the guy they support ( whats that word Sanz ? coterie ?).

Yeah dude, I am such a psycophant of Gangs that at least 3-4 times in last week I have said that Ganguly doesn't deserve to be in the team that he has lost it, immidiately after watching him in Bangladesh series I said it then that he has lost the art, that Ganguly should be dropped. Now go and see how many times you have questioned Greg's statement and after that try to figure out who is sucking up to whom. Now go and worship the rising sun of Indian cricket aka Greg Chappel.

What prevented Ganguly from spilling the beans on the first days morning itself ?

Uhh this is what we call ignorance. Ganguly didn't go to media on his own, on the 3rd day when he scored the century, Harsha was interviewing him at the end of the day. Harsha asked him about the 'nagative vibes' in the team and then asked him a couple of times about the problems in the team and that's when Gangs said that 'He was asked to quit'.

Of course, going along with his delusions of grandeur, he probably feels he has spectacularly redeemed himself by letting the world know about the behind-the-scenes action after his blazing 263 ball century against the kings of cricket. After all, why risk having your nose rubbed in the sand by disclosing this before the innings, when you're not sure of playing a good innings ?

It's you who 'Probably feels' that way. Give a rest to your imagination, that's all I can say.

 

[Sanz]

But there's a big difference between Ganguly and Vaughan, A BIG ONE.

err If you look at the ODIs, there isn't really much difference..And despite having players like KP, Flintoff, Collinwood England are in the bottom half of the ICC table along with India.

Even In tests India are doing all right despite the injury of it major player, poor bowling attack etc.

 

[marc71178]

Sanz, you speak as if Chappell should be crucified for saying his honest opinion.

Its not so much what he said, but the way he said it.

 

[Sanz]

Sanz, you speak as if Chappell should be crucified for saying his honest opinion. Whether you agree with him or not is up to you, but I think we all need to calm down a little bit here.

Aren't most of you are speaking in a manner as if Ganguly should be crucified for telling the truth. If Chappel was being honest then ganguly is speaking truth as well.

All along I have maintained that Chappel crossed the line there with his suggestion, Ganguly asked his opinion about picking one of Yuvraj/Kaif and I dont understand how it becomes an honest opinion (and not having a go at the captain) to say that both of them should play ahead of the captain.

If tomorrow Chappell comes to Dhoni and says he man 'you suck as a wicketkeeper, why dont you drop yourself knowing very well that Dravid can keep better than him', It would be an opinion, right ?

 

[Sanz]

I agree with all of that, but I think it's time to go for Ganguly. He has done a LOT of good in the past, but he should realise that his time is up (or should be up at any rate) and go with dignity. Otherwise he'll just be remembered for being axed while whinging, instead of as one of the best things to happen to Indian cricket.

Of course it is time (it has been for a while) for him to go and the sooner he realizes it the better it is for him. I dont think anyone is arguing that.

On the subject of captaincy, I'm not a fan of "aggressive" captains - unless they have something to back it up...I'd prefer someone with tactical nous and good instincts..like a Fleming or even Vaughan. Dravid IMO should take over now.

Actually Dravid is as attacking as they come and we will see that very soon.

 

[shoot_me]

Actually Dravid is as attacking as they come and we will see that very soon.

I sure hope so.